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Open Discussion Discuss The government shutdown at the General Forum; Welp, show's over, until the 8th. I don't think it's healthy to run a government like a no-contract, month-to-month phone ...

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2018, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Welp, show's over, until the 8th.

I don't think it's healthy to run a government like a no-contract, month-to-month phone plan. This will be the fourth CR in a row, we need a long-term budget. Unfortunately with the lack of leadership of Trump, the stubborn dickishness of McConnell, and the weak spines of the Democrats, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
Welp, show's over, until the 8th.

I don't think it's healthy to run a government like a no-contract, month-to-month phone plan. This will be the fourth CR in a row, we need a long-term budget. Unfortunately with the lack of leadership of Trump, the stubborn dickishness of McConnell, and the weak spines of the Democrats, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
It takes sixty votes in the Senate to approve the budget. The dems have 49 and a desire to shut Trump down, at every turn, at the expense of the Nation.

Leaders take care of the population, not the party.

Democrats have had control of the government since 2006 elections. 10 years later they lost. After all that time thinking they were in charge, I guess we could cut the poor losers some slack. But their leadership won't accept it. They would rather take their ball and go home.

They should do their duty. Which to the minds of most Americans does not include placing the rights of illegal immigrants over that of legitimate citizens. Unlike legal immigrants they are not "guests" they are squatters.
A recent poll say s 72% of Americans want strong borders. Our President is trying to comply. The Never Trumpsters are impeding the will of the people.

And you complain about Leadership.
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Just in secret video of the Senate as they settled the shutdown crisis.
Your tax dollars at work!!!


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Old 01-23-2018, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
I think everyone should be able to agree that we should have a secure border.

Why does the left have a problem with a secure border?
The left is highly supportive of border security. Why does the right keep lying and claiming they not? Substantial improvements to border security were implemented under the Obama Administration resulting in a significant decline in illegal border crossing in 2015 and 2016. Even Trump commended Obama on these improvements.

Both Republicans and Democrats want secure borders. It's identical to funding for the US military where both Republicans and Democrats wanted to ensure that the military was paid but when a Democrat, Sen. Claire McCaskill, called for a unanimous consent to fund payments to the military after the shutdown vote it was Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell that for partisan reasons objected and blocked that funding.

What many on both the left and right agree on is that the original border wall that Trump described during his campaign would be a huge waste of money. There are places where a physical wall or fencing does make sense and is cost effective but only if other resources are in place as well.

For example a wall without border patrol agents on the spot to stop an illegal entry is nothing but an annoyance to someone illegally entering the country and nothing along the border prevents visa overstays that's the primary means for people to become unlawful/illegal immigrants in recent years.

Addressing the unlawful/illegal immigrant problem overall is far more complex because that's a fundamental immigration law issue. The immigration law has to match the reasons why people immigrate to the United States. If it doesn't then it spawns people coming to the United States by any means possible and becoming illegal/unlawful immigrants. We had 11 million illegal/unlawful immigrants in the United States because of flaws in the Reagan immigration law reforms from 1986. If we don't address the flaws then we're going to have 11 million more illegal/unlawful immigrants in the future regardless of any measures we take to prevent them from entering the United States or efforts to deport them.

That's a huge task to undertake and is not within the scope of what can be accomplished in the next few weeks. In the next few weeks only DACA and funding for additional border security is on the table and DACA is of primary importance because it has a March 5th deadline.

Providing protections for those currently covered by DACA isn't all that hard and there's overwhelming support both by the public and in Congress to provide them with legal status and a pathway to citizenship. As noted they've not actually broken any law. They're not responsible for being in the country because they were brought here as children and they're not responsible for not having documentation because there was no means for them to obtain documentation when they became adults living in the United States. Congress can fix that for them and that's the primary issue that both Republicans and Democrats agree upon.

But what about future children that are brought into the United States by their parents - the future DACA problem? Congress needs to prevent the "future DACA" problem while it addresses the current DACA problem. There's a solution for that as well that should be included.

For the future the law needs to include a provision for those brought into the United States as children so that they can obtain documentation for legal permanent residency when they become adults. My recommendation would be that anyone brought into the United States under the age of 18 should be allowed to apply for and be granted legal permanent residency after they've been in the United States for at least ten years and are over the age of 18.

DACA was an unnecessary Trump created problem but as long as it drives resolution both for now and in the future for children brought into the United States it can actually benefit America. If it's not resolved then it just becomes another item in the list of harmful actions by President Trump.

But Trump's created another unnecessary immigration problem that seems to be ignored. Let's address that too.... Refugees that have come to the United States and that have adopted the United States as their new homeland... Trump has ordered them to be deported. I would propose that any adult refugee that's been in the United States and has been employed for two or more years be granted permanent residency because they've already adopted the United States as their new homeland.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:51 AM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
It takes sixty votes in the Senate to approve the budget. The dems have 49 and a desire to shut Trump down, at every turn, at the expense of the Nation.

Leaders take care of the population, not the party.

Democrats have had control of the government since 2006 elections. 10 years later they lost. After all that time thinking they were in charge, I guess we could cut the poor losers some slack. But their leadership won't accept it. They would rather take their ball and go home.

They should do their duty. Which to the minds of most Americans does not include placing the rights of illegal immigrants over that of legitimate citizens. Unlike legal immigrants they are not "guests" they are squatters.
A recent poll say s 72% of Americans want strong borders. Our President is trying to comply. The Never Trumpsters are impeding the will of the people.

And you complain about Leadership.
The only time Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the White House was during the 113th Congress in 2009-2010.

Note: The Republicans control during both the 108th and 109th Congress in 2003-2006 under Bush and the 115th Congress under Trump for 2017-2018.
http://wiredpen.com/resources/politi...sidency/#chart

Democrats have not attempted to shut Trump down at every turn although with Trump's disapproval rating of over 50% the Democrats are generally on the side of the American people when they do. What we've seen in Congress is that the GOP's legislative agenda to repeal Obamacare and Trump's efforts to destroy Obamacare has been opposed by the majority of the American people. The people were also highly opposed to the GOP tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations that will ultimately result in higher taxes for roughly 90% of Americans while digging an even larger financial hole for Americans with $1.4 trillion in additional debt.

While Americans overall, including Democrats, want to improve border security the majority of Americans oppose Trump's border wall.

Overwhelmingly Americans, 87%, support the Dreamers that Trump opposed with his executive order to end DACA.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-am...cbs-news-poll/

While this is not an endorsement for Democrats it's been clear that since Trump was elected and became president while having control of both the Senate and the House the GOP has been the party that ignores the American people and instead is forcing it's political agenda on Americans against their will. I don't think anyone can dispute that fact because there's been virtually no support for the GOP's actions in Congress or for what Trump's been doing as President based upon the polls of the American people.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2018, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The left is highly supportive of border security.
The words, "border security," are weasel words. They typically mean, "anything but The Wall."

I am in favor of The Wall. And I take strong exception to anyone who is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
It's identical to funding for the US military where both Republicans and Democrats wanted to ensure that the military was paid but when a Democrat, Sen. Claire McCaskill, called for a unanimous consent to fund payments to the military after the shutdown vote it was Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell that for partisan reasons objected and blocked that funding.
Source, please. (Preferably, a neutral one.)

Oh, and did this suggestion (if it even existed) contain a "poison pill"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
What many on both the left and right agree on is that the original border wall that Trump described during his campaign would be a huge waste of money. There are places where a physical wall or fencing does make sense and is cost effective but only if other resources are in place as well.
It is certainly true that the original border wall, as described by then-candidate Trump, contained some superfluous footage, where natural barriers existed. Since then, he has evolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
[V]isa overstays [are] the primary means for people to become unlawful/illegal immigrants in recent years.
True, according to my own understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Addressing the unlawful/illegal immigrant problem overall is far more complex because that's a fundamental immigration law issue. The immigration law has to match the reasons why people immigrate to the United States. If it doesn't then it spawns people coming to the United States by any means possible and becoming illegal/unlawful immigrants. We had 11 million illegal/unlawful immigrants in the United States because of flaws in the Reagan immigration law reforms from 1986. If we don't address the flaws then we're going to have 11 million more illegal/unlawful immigrants in the future regardless of any measures we take to prevent them from entering the United States or efforts to deport them.
And just what "flaws" are those, precisely?

Note: Like President Trump, I strongly support an end to chain migration (the Democrats use the euphemism, "family reunification"), and the "lottery system."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Providing protections for those currently covered by DACA isn't all that hard and there's overwhelming support both by the public and in Congress to provide them with legal status and a pathway to citizenship. As noted they've not actually broken any law. They're not responsible for being in the country because they were brought here as children and they're not responsible for not having documentation because there was no means for them to obtain documentation when they became adults living in the United States. Congress can fix that for them and that's the primary issue that both Republicans and Democrats agree upon.
Yes, those who were brought here (illegally) as children, are not to blame. And if this is the only country they have ever known--some were brought as mere infants--it does seem cruel to deport them to a country that they have really never known.

And I agree that this can be fixed.

Note: Many of these "children" are now adults.

In any case, Republicans should hold out for something in return--say, full funding for The Wall along our southern border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
For the future the law needs to include a provision for those brought into the United States as children so that they can obtain documentation for legal permanent residency when they become adults. My recommendation would be that [B][I]anyone brought into the United States under the age of 18 should be allowed to apply for and be granted legal permanent residency after they've been in the United States for at least ten years and are over the age of 18.
This does seem reasonable. I would not oppose it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
DACA was an unnecessary Trump created problem but as long as it drives resolution both for now and in the future for children brought into the United States it can actually benefit America.
Actually, DACA was created by then-President Obama.

And it highlights the weakness of governing by executive orders...
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Democrats have not attempted to shut Trump down at every turn although with Trump's disapproval rating of over 50% the Democrats are generally on the side of the American people when they do. What we've seen in Congress is that the GOP's legislative agenda to repeal Obamacare and Trump's efforts to destroy Obamacare has been opposed by the majority of the American people. The people were also highly opposed to the GOP tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations that will ultimately result in higher taxes for roughly 90% of Americans while digging an even larger financial hole for Americans with $1.4 trillion in additional debt.

While Americans overall, including Democrats, want to improve border security the majority of Americans oppose Trump's border wall.
This points to the enormous difference between "the majority" of Americans and the typical American.

Because of the huge number of left-leaners and Democrats (a redundancy, that) on both coasts--which contain some huge cities--and even the Democratic tendency of the midwestern city, Chicago (which is the third-largest city in America), it is quite understandable that "a majority" of Americans prefer leftist policies.

But typical Americans--i.e. those in the midwest (outside of The Big City) and the south--prefer more conservative policies.

So let us try not to confuse the two.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Take it up with the 5 District Court of Appeals that ruled otherwise.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ration/415077/


Try again. This was about DAPA, not DACA. The states challenged allowing the parents of the children to stay. Also, contrary to your original assertion, no ruling was made declaring DAPA unconstitutional either.

It did end up to with the Supreme Court, which eventually ended up split in its decision on the case (this was before Scalia’s seat was filled, and so a tie was possible), so no legal precedent was set and the the issue of constitutionality was not ruled on.


Also, from your own article:

"In her dissent, the third judge, Carolyn King, counseled judicial restraint in what she framed as a policy dispute instead of a legal one. “Because the DAPA Memorandum contains only guidelines for the exercise of prosecutorial discretion and does not itself confer any benefits to DAPA recipients, I would deem this case non-justiciable,” she wrote. “The policy decisions at issue in this case are best resolved not by judicial fiat, but via the political process.”"


Furthermore, we know that Trump is using the DACA program to get funding for his border wall, because that is exactly what he is doing now.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The only time Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the White House was during the 113th Congress in 2009-2010.

Note: The Republicans control during both the 108th and 109th Congress in 2003-2006 under Bush and the 115th Congress under Trump for 2017-2018.
http://wiredpen.com/resources/politi...sidency/#chart

Overwhelmingly Americans, 87%, support the Dreamers that Trump opposed with his executive order to end DACA.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-am...cbs-news-poll/

While this is not an endorsement for Democrats it's been clear that since Trump was elected and became president while having control of both the Senate and the House the GOP has been the party that ignores the American people and instead is forcing it's political agenda on Americans against their will. I don't think anyone can dispute that fact because there's been virtually no support for the GOP's actions in Congress or for what Trump's been doing as President based upon the polls of the American people.
That's true, but I never said anything about Democrats controlling all three houses. And frankly there is no assurance such control means that party controls the Government. That requires absolute majorities, particularly in the Senate.

Or have you been asleep of late?

So long as the other side has 41 votes in their pocket, the Senate can be stalled. this is on purpose and a good thing.

As for the DACA, Most Americans support a humane solution. Including the current President. His predecessor could have done better than an unconstitutional EO. That is beyond argument.

As is the majority of Americans wanting the borders "SECURE" That doesn't necessarily mean just a wall. Ya'll got to stop focusing on "THE WALL." The Wall was approved a decade ago. Trump hasn't asked for a wall. He has asked for money for a the wall.

But Border security is more than a fence or any physical barrier. It is aggressive enforcement of our "Sovereignty."

Stop chain Migration.
Stop the Lottery system
Remove foreign guests who do not behave.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2018, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: The government shutdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The only time Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the White House was during the 113th Congress in 2009-2010.

Note: The Republicans control during both the 108th and 109th Congress in 2003-2006 under Bush and the 115th Congress under Trump for 2017-2018.
http://wiredpen.com/resources/politi...sidency/#chart

Democrats have not attempted to shut Trump down at every turn although with Trump's disapproval rating of over 50% the Democrats are generally on the side of the American people when they do. What we've seen in Congress is that the GOP's legislative agenda to repeal Obamacare and Trump's efforts to destroy Obamacare has been opposed by the majority of the American people. The people were also highly opposed to the GOP tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations that will ultimately result in higher taxes for roughly 90% of Americans while digging an even larger financial hole for Americans with $1.4 trillion in additional debt.

While Americans overall, including Democrats, want to improve border security the majority of Americans oppose Trump's border wall.

Overwhelmingly Americans, 87%, support the Dreamers that Trump opposed with his executive order to end DACA.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-am...cbs-news-poll/

While this is not an endorsement for Democrats it's been clear that since Trump was elected and became president while having control of both the Senate and the House the GOP has been the party that ignores the American people and instead is forcing it's political agenda on Americans against their will. I don't think anyone can dispute that fact because there's been virtually no support for the GOP's actions in Congress or for what Trump's been doing as President based upon the polls of the American people.
I do not "endorse" everything Democratic either. My wife and I have voted Republican more than once. We voted for Hillary as a sort of lesser of two evils.

The current version of "Republicanism" would SURELY only cause LOSS of our nation.
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