Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Open Discussion
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Open Discussion Discuss Trump and the Law at the General Forum; Revelations about Trump explain in part why Trump and Trump's supporters are becoming so desperate and resorting to extreme measures ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2017, 09:48 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,999
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 2,141 Times in 1,686 Posts
Default Trump and the Law

Revelations about Trump explain in part why Trump and Trump's supporters are becoming so desperate and resorting to extreme measures in opposing the Mueller investigation.

Forget about the Steele dossier. Forget about the failure of Trump's associates to disclose dozens of contacts with the Russians. Forget about the meeting with Russian representatives to secure negative information on Hillary Clinton from the Russian government. Forget about one FBI agent expressing anti-Trump political opinions that resulted in his immediate firing from the Mueller investigative team. Forget about politics completely.

Recent revelations indicate that Robert Mueller has firm evidence to prove that Donald Trump knowingly and intentionally engaged in obstruction of justice in attempting to have Comey drop the investigation of Mike Flynn that was based upon a criminal offense.

Quote:
Just days after the inauguration, White House Counsel Don McGahn learned—and warned President Donald Trump—that then-national security adviser Michael Flynn had probably violated federal laws, according to a new report out Wednesday.

Foreign Policy reported that the Special Counsel has obtained “records” that reveal McGahn in late January researched the consequences of lying to the FBI and of violating the Logan Act, a centuries-old federal prohibition on private citizens negotiating with hostile foreign governments. The research, conducted with the help of two aides, prompted McGahn to conclude that Flynn had likely committed a crime by discussing sanctions with a top Russian official during the transition, two current administration officials told Foreign Policy.

Most significantly, the records now in the possession of Special Counsel Robert Mueller indicate McGahn “warned Trump about Flynn’s possible violations” for holding those discussions and lying about them to the FBI, according to Foreign Policy.

Legal experts told TPM that such advance notification about Flynn’s potentially criminal acts would significantly bolster the case that the President was trying to obstruct justice when he allegedly asked then-FBI Director James Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn the day after his dismissal from the White House. The obstruction statute requires not only that someone tried to impede an investigation, but had corrupt intent in doing so.

“It basically all goes to what Trump knew when he asked Comey to let the Flynn investigation go,” former FBI counterintelligence agent Asha Rangappa told TPM.
Does New Report On McGahn’s Flynn Concerns Bolster Obstruction Case? – Talking Points Memo

McGahn was motivated to investigate Flynn's possible criminal acts based upon information provided to him by then acting Attorney General Sally Yates on January 26th following Flynn's January 24th interview with the FBI where Flynn made false statements (and has plead guilty to that felony). Based upon his research into possible criminal offenses committed by Flynn McGahn advised Trump and Trump's senior staff that Flynn had probably violated federal laws and that he was under investigation by the FBI for those offenses.

Donald Trump and members of Trump's White House repeatedly stated that McGahn had told Trump and member's of Trump's White House staff that Flynn hadn't violated any laws but McGahn's written records indicate exactly the opposite.

Donald Trump knew that Flynn had probably violated federal laws and was under a FBI criminal investigation for those offenses when he had FBI Director James Comey come to the White House for dinner on January 27th. At that meeting Trump attempted to demand "loyaty" from Comey. Comey refused to pledge loyalty to Trump at that private meeting. Comey took notes on the meeting and also disclosed what Trump had demanded with senior members of the FBI right after the meeting.

On Feb 14th, the day after Flynn resigns, Trump once again had a private meeting with Comey where he asked Comey to "let Flynn go" (i.e. drop the criminal investigation) that Trump knew was ongoing. Once again Comey recorded the discussion as soon as the meeting was over, like any law enforcement officer is trained to do, and then discussed it with the senior staff at the FBI.

While it's relatively obvious that Trump wanted Comey to terminate the Flynn investigation because of Flynn's role in the FBI's investigations of Trump-Russia connections that's not really relevant to the prosecution of obstruction of justice. The very fact that Trump attempted to use his position as President to influence a criminal investigation alone established his actions as an obstruction of justice.

This was later compounded when Trump wanted Comey to release official FBI statements related to the Russia-Trump investigation for political reasons stating that Trump wasn't under a personal investigation. Just like the Hillary Clinton email investigation Comey refused to take any actions based upon political considerations. He refused to clear Trump prior to the conclusion of the investigation just like he'd refused to clear Hillary Clinton prior to the conclusion of the investigation into her emails.

James Comey, during his entire career, refused to allow political consideration to influence the actions of the FBI. He refused with Clinton although she never made such a request and he refused with Trump after Trump made that specific request.

Trump, based upon his own statements after the fact, fired James Comey over the Russian-Trump investigation being conducted under Comey at the FBI. The FBI investigation was not going the way Trump wanted it to go where it would quickly clear him of any wrongdoing for political reasons and so he fired Comey.

Once again the Russia-Trump investigation was addressing criminal actions and Trump attempted to obstruct that investigation for his own political purposes.

Trump, right now, could be prosecuted for Obstruction of Justice because the evidence clearly supports a conviction. Obstruction of Justice is grounds for impeachment and removal from office.

That's the apparent reason that there are all of the current efforts to discredit the FBI and to discredit the Mueller investigation. Those making these attempts to derail the law enforcement actions of the FBI and the Mueller investigation know that they already have enough evidence to warrant Trump's removal from office and they're desperately trying to prevent that from happening.

Trump is also afraid of something else. Trump knows what it is that Mueller is likely to find out and Trump doesn't want that happen. The laundering of Russian money by the Trump Organization is a probably crime that can be identified as Mueller follows the money trail but we're not exactly sure yet. We do know that Trump is highly opposed to Mueller following the money trail so believing that Trump has committed something illegal that the money trail will reveal is a reasonable assumption
__________________
I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU
BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ShivaTD For This Useful Post:
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2017, 01:23 PM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,999
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 2,141 Times in 1,686 Posts
Default Draining the Swamp

Donald Trump is facing indictment for obstruction of justice because the evidence shows that he knew that Flynn was under a criminal investigation when he asked Comey to drop the FBI investigation. Any attempt to interfere with a criminal investigation to protect a person that's potentially violated the law is obstruction of justice.

GOP members of Congress that are attempting to shut down the criminal investigation of Donald Trump should take note because their attempts also represent obstruction of justice and it doesn't matter what type of excuse they fabricate for their attempt to shut down the criminal investigation. Even if Mueller's team was political biased it wouldn't matter because it's engaged in a criminal, not political, investigation of Trump's violation of the law.

Trump can should be removed from office if the evidence clearly establishes that he knew Flynn was under a criminal investigation when he asked Comey to drop the FBI investigation.

The same is true for those Republicans in Congress today that are attempting to shut down the Mueller investigation of Donald Trump. They know that Trump is under a criminal investigation and their actions in attempting to shut down Mueller's criminal investigation of Donald Trump is obstruction of justice. They will also need to be indicted and removed from office.

The time is fast approaching when we need to "Drain the Swamp" and these Republican members of Congress that are trying to protect Donald Trump by shutting down the Mueller criminal investigation of Trump need to be booted out of government and prosecuted just like Donald Trump.

No one, not Trump or the Republicans in Congress, are above the law.
__________________
I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU
BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2017, 06:04 PM
saltwn's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Esto perpetua
Posts: 74,158
Thanks: 53,199
Thanked 25,402 Times in 18,044 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to saltwn
Default Re: Trump and the Law

All that's lacking is the political will.
__________________
Republican pollster Frank Luntz quoted a report and said that 43 percent of immigrants from African countries have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 33 percent of the American population overall.
“Nigerian-Americans, for instance, have a median household income well above the American average.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...el-in-the-u-s-
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2017, 10:35 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,999
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 2,141 Times in 1,686 Posts
Default Re: Trump and the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
All that's lacking is the political will.
While impeachment and removal from office requires political will the obstruction of justice is a criminal offense completely unrelated to politics. The question does exist about whether a sitting president can be prosecuted, and there are arguments on both side, but there's no question whatsoever that members of Congress that attempt to impede or to terminate the Mueller criminal investigation of Donald Trump are committing an act of obstruction of justice and can be prosecuted.

Criminal indictment and prosecution is outside of the political arena. That's why "political bias" is meaningless once the charges start being filed and four people associated with Trump have already had criminal charges file against them.
__________________
I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU
BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2017, 10:53 AM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,275
Thanks: 7,811
Thanked 6,545 Times in 3,969 Posts
Default Re: Trump and the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
While impeachment and removal from office requires political will the obstruction of justice is a criminal offense completely unrelated to politics. The question does exist about whether a sitting president can be prosecuted, and there are arguments on both side, but there's no question whatsoever that members of Congress that attempt to impede or to terminate the Mueller criminal investigation of Donald Trump are committing an act of obstruction of justice and can be prosecuted.

Criminal indictment and prosecution is outside of the political arena. That's why "political bias" is meaningless once the charges start being filed and four people associated with Trump have already had criminal charges file against them.
If there is a charge of obstruction of justice, then bring it on. Otherwise it's just leftists blowing smoke, and not from their ears.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jimbo For This Useful Post:
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2017, 10:54 AM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,275
Thanks: 7,811
Thanked 6,545 Times in 3,969 Posts
Default Re: Trump and the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
All that's lacking is the political will.
What's lacking is evidence.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jimbo For This Useful Post:
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2017, 11:43 AM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 15,272
Thanks: 8,101
Thanked 8,768 Times in 5,434 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Trump and the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
While impeachment and removal from office requires political will the obstruction of justice is a criminal offense completely unrelated to politics. The question does exist about whether a sitting president can be prosecuted, and there are arguments on both side, but there's no question whatsoever that members of Congress that attempt to impede or to terminate the Mueller criminal investigation of Donald Trump are committing an act of obstruction of justice and can be prosecuted.

Criminal indictment and prosecution is outside of the political arena. That's why "political bias" is meaningless once the charges start being filed and four people associated with Trump have already had criminal charges file against them.
The claim that Congress exercising their power of the purse is obstruction of justice is absurd. Likewise the nonsensical criminalization of Congressional oversight is strongly reminiscent of the Soviet KGB, . Mueller as an unchallenged inquisitor with virtually unlimited scope and budget is antithetical to our Republic.

Neither the guilty pleas nor the indictments produced by Mueller's lynch mob of Trump haters has produced any evidence of collusion with Russia. In desperation to preserve the hope of usurping the last election the Russian collusion witch hunt has been diverted into obstruction of justice broadened to include anyone who questions the infallible special council along with the fake news story of Mueller's imminent dismissal.
__________________
The Democrat's strategy for the Trump Presidency is the same one used by Stalin's secret police chief "show me the man and I will show you the crime."
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:12 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,999
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 2,141 Times in 1,686 Posts
Default Re: Trump and the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The claim that Congress exercising their power of the purse is obstruction of justice is absurd. Likewise the nonsensical criminalization of Congressional oversight is strongly reminiscent of the Soviet KGB, . Mueller as an unchallenged inquisitor with virtually unlimited scope and budget is antithetical to our Republic.

Neither the guilty pleas nor the indictments produced by Mueller's lynch mob of Trump haters has produced any evidence of collusion with Russia. In desperation to preserve the hope of usurping the last election the Russian collusion witch hunt has been diverted into obstruction of justice broadened to include anyone who questions the infallible special council along with the fake news story of Mueller's imminent dismissal.
The Mueller investigation is funded by the budget authorizations for the FBI that fund all FBI criminal investigations. It does not have special Congressional funding. Congress can cut the FBI budget but it cannot specifically cut the funding for Mueller's investigation because there's no special funding authority to be addressed.

Michael Flynn and George Papadopoulos are not "Trump haters" but both plead guilty to the FBI to cover up their contacts with Russian operatives in an apparent attempt to shield Donald Trump from being connected to the Russians.

Michael Flynn's confession is of special importance because we know Flynn was discussing the lifting of sanctions against Russia once Trump took office. Flynn couldn't lift the sanctions, only Trump could, and Flynn would not have been discussing the lifting of the sanction without Trump's approval because only Trump could lift those sanctions. Logic would indicate that Flynn can implicate Trump by establishing a quid pro quo arrangement between Donald Trump and Russia (Putin) where Russia would engage in covert operations, that included the felonious hacking of Democratic emails, to help Trump get elected and in turn Trump would lift the sanctions against Russia. That exceeds the non-criminal act of collusion and introduces the a criminal charge of conspiracy to commit a crime (hacking of the Democratic emails by Russia) by Donald Trump.

This would be on top of the current evidence of obstruction of justice against Donald Trump where the White House Council advised Trump that Flynn was under a criminal investigation and then Trump attempted to get Comey to drop that criminal investigation. The White House Council's notes document his advising Trump of the criminal acts Flynn was under investigation for and Comey's testimony supported by his notes taken at the time and his discussing what Trump had said to him at the time with other top FBI members provides compelling evidence of obstruction of justice. Donald Trump, a documented compulsive liar, only has his own potential testimony to use as a defense against the evidence him.

Mueller didn't let Flynn off lightly by only charging him with perjury in lying to the FBI without Flynn providing compelling evidence that would reach higher in the White House and the only person of importance higher than Flynn in the Trump White House is Donald Trump. To believe that Flynn hasn't implicated Trump in a deal with Russia to drop sanctions requires living in a bubble that blocks out all reality.

Typically a prosecutor, including Robert Mueller, will not bring charges against a person until an investigation is complete to the point that indictments can be obtained for all criminal charges that will be brought against the person. As noted Mueller apparently has enough evidence for the obstruction of justice complaint and possibly has enough evidence for a conspiracy charge against Trump but may still be searching for additional evidence or testimony to back up Flynn's potential testimony. While Flynn would certainly be very significant witness in prosecuting Trump for conspiracy the prosecution would certainly want more than a single witness.

In addition to seeking to find more evidence related to a possible conspiracy charge the Mueller investigation may also be investigating other possible crimes by Donald Trusmp. There's been circumstantial evidence of the Trump Organizations involvement with Russian organized crime including possible money laundering. The fact that members of Russian organized crime were purchasing Trump property to launder money the received by their illegal activities in Russia has already been documented but a connection to Donald Trump being involved hasn't been publically revealed. At a time when Trump was in severe financial difficulties, unable to secure funding through conventional banking institutions, there's potential evidence of Russian organized crime providing the funding for the Trump Soho development that was channeled through a third party lender.

Robert Mueller has organized the Dream Team of prosecutors that have the expertise and proven background in providing the evidence for conviction in all criminal activities under his investigation.

Republicans in Congress have complained that most of Mueller's prosecutors have liberal political connections but their political opinions have absolutely nothing to do with their success in prosecuting criminal activities at the highest level. "Liberals" are often referred to as "Trump Haters" but when it comes to investigating and prosecuting criminal offenses only the evidence matters.

Mueller couldn't have cared less about their political opinion when he selected them. Mueller only cared about their track record as prosecutors and he selected the best people available. Mueller's not involved in a political investigation where the political opinions of the prosecutors could be relevant. Mueller's involved in a criminal investigation where only the competence of the prosecutors in obtaining evidence and prosecuting a criminal case in courtroom is important.

Only the evidence matters and as of right now the evidence of criminal offenses committed by Donald Trump continues to build. There's apparently enough already for some criminal charges and there's strong indications of evidence being collected for more serious crimes committed by Donald Trump.

Time to get out of the bubble and face reality Trump supporters. Trump really is going to be criminally connected with the Russians and face criminal indictments. You can bet the farm on that happening.
__________________
I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU
BUT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT FOR YOU
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2017, 09:18 AM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,275
Thanks: 7,811
Thanked 6,545 Times in 3,969 Posts
Default Re: Draining the Swamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Donald Trump is facing indictment for obstruction of justice because the evidence shows that he knew that Flynn was under a criminal investigation when he asked Comey to drop the FBI investigation. Any attempt to interfere with a criminal investigation to protect a person that's potentially violated the law is obstruction of justice.

GOP members of Congress that are attempting to shut down the criminal investigation of Donald Trump should take note because their attempts also represent obstruction of justice and it doesn't matter what type of excuse they fabricate for their attempt to shut down the criminal investigation. Even if Mueller's team was political biased it wouldn't matter because it's engaged in a criminal, not political, investigation of Trump's violation of the law.

Trump can should be removed from office if the evidence clearly establishes that he knew Flynn was under a criminal investigation when he asked Comey to drop the FBI investigation.

The same is true for those Republicans in Congress today that are attempting to shut down the Mueller investigation of Donald Trump. They know that Trump is under a criminal investigation and their actions in attempting to shut down Mueller's criminal investigation of Donald Trump is obstruction of justice. They will also need to be indicted and removed from office.

The time is fast approaching when we need to "Drain the Swamp" and these Republican members of Congress that are trying to protect Donald Trump by shutting down the Mueller criminal investigation of Trump need to be booted out of government and prosecuted just like Donald Trump.

No one, not Trump or the Republicans in Congress, are above the law.
If Mueller has firm evidence bring it on. Otherwise it's time to shut down this circus and get on with the business of running the government.

The entire investigation is a solution in search of a justification.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jimbo For This Useful Post:
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:06 PM
MrLiberty's Avatar
professional curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,506
Thanks: 21,953
Thanked 18,604 Times in 11,933 Posts
Default Re: Trump and the Law

I posted this on another site......

Quote:
I have been pondering this for a week now. Trump is in his 70's and is a savvy business man. He has had dealing with foreign governments for years, and in all that time no one, I repeat no one has ever questioned him. you would think that after all his dealings that the IRS has done many audits of him and not once has he ever been accused of illegal dealings. Many of his overseas projects had to be looked at through the state dept. and SEC, yet not once were they questioned. I'm sure our governments many agencies looked at his dealings through the years, so why is it that no one questioned his ethics until he became president?

Democrats loved him and his money when he supported them. So did the republicans. But now the elitists in congress of both parties are out to destroy him. Are they so afraid he will do what he promised and drain the swamp and stop the free ride that many in congress relish because they can line their pockets and pull the wool over the American public's eyes?

I keep reading all these articles from on-line sources about how obama, the Clinton's, and the DNC have broken laws and yet nothing comes of it, WHY? Is it because it is not true or would an investigation into them reveal that republicans were in cahoots.

Our congress no longer works for the people of this country and they are the most corrupt of any congress before them. Hopefully Trump can drain the swamp, but in order to do that he needs an attorney general who is not beholden to his party or any other party. It is time to replace Sessions with a tough, fair minded attorney who will bring down those in power..
__________________
Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.

Donald Trump
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
and, law, the, trump

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0