Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Open Discussion
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Open Discussion Discuss GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Surly OK, now you seem to understand. Now we can talk about third party payer and profits. ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:36 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,066
Thanks: 7,608
Thanked 6,396 Times in 3,885 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
OK, now you seem to understand. Now we can talk about third party payer and profits. Ready? Right now we pay for everyone's healthcare in this country one way or another. Unfortunately for us, or system has been profit based since probably WW2. the insurance company is a synergist in our system. They make about 2 or 3 percent and make us all pay into the system for years whether we use it or not. Health care costs go up, no big, just raise premiums. They take it out slowly so we can afford it kinda, but fast enough to finance the most expensive and profitable healthcare system in the world and pay more for it every year. If providers have to pay for indigent healthcare no big just raise prices for everyone, make even more profit, and raise premiums. This is very very simplistic, but this is what I am talking about when I say we are paying for everyone's healthcare anyway.
You are trying very hard to backtrack your statements by diverting. Start a new thread on your topic I'll probably participate.

Or just use one or more of the threads already in existence. This post seems to have a multitude of new topics. Probably need more than one new thread.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:44 PM
Surly's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,789
Thanks: 2,659
Thanked 2,897 Times in 2,256 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

You really don't understand what you are talking about. We have universal healthcare now. Everyone can go to the ER, and when they are sick enough they get lifesaving care. Very ineffective and why the ER is so expensive. If you want to not have universal healthcare you have to be able to deny some patients healthcare. I know this is difficult. It is not what you have been told but very germane the OP. We have always paid for everyone's healthcare, just in the most profitable way possible. If there was profit in clinics we would have more clinics. A healthcare system is complicated, who'd a thunk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Rep. Diane Black (R-Tenn.) proposed on Friday that hospital emergency rooms should be able to turn patients away to help keep health care costs down.
“I’m an emergency room nurse,” Black told MSNBC host Chuck Todd on Friday. “There are people that came into my emergency room that I, the nurse, was the first one to see them. I could have sent them to a walk-in clinic or their doctor the next day, but because of a law that Congress put into place to say, no, I have to treat everybody that walks into that emergency room.”

“You took away our ability to say, ‘No, an emergency room is not the proper place.’ And then, you put a burden on top of that to say, ‘You must do that,’” added the congresswoman, who is also running for governor of Tennessee.

At issue is the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, which was signed into law by former President Ronald Reagan in 1986. It was a congressional response to stories of “patient dumping” ― hospitals would deny treatment to patients or send them elsewhere, usually because the individuals didn’t have insurance. Many of these patients were unemployed or were people of color.

Those transferred individuals were more likely to die, and the delayed care often jeopardized the patients’ health.

The law put a particular focus on pregnant women (hence “active labor” in the law’s name), to ensure that they would be able to deliver their babies and receive full care.

Changing the law, as Black advocates, would send America back to a time when hospitals can use their discretion to turn people away.

“We must treat everybody that walks in whether you’ve had a sore throat for a week, we must see them. And that crowds the emergency room. It drives the cost of emergencies up,” Black added on MSNBC. “And so, yes, if someone comes in from an auto accident, I don’t want to ask whether they have insurance or not. I’m going to take care of them.”

“But what it did is crowd my emergency room, where I work,” she added. “And disallowed me from using my good judgment skills, of which I was trained to do and doctors are as well. And the federal government said, you must ― and you can’t make those decisions. And I think that was a poor thing for us to do.”

This free-for-all system would not be unlike what happened before Obamacare, when there were fewer requirements for insurance companies to accept people for coverage. It was a time when insurance providers were free to turn people away because they had more expensive pre-existing conditions ― or were labeled as potentially having an expensive condition down the line. And since these companies were free to do so, they did.

Nobody thinks EMTALA is perfect and non-partisan organizations, including the Institute of Medicine, have long called for revising some of the law’s regulations as part of a broader strategy to ease emergency room overcrowding. And although conservatives have been among the most critical of the law, even the Heritage Foundation admits that “the outright repeal of EMTALA is highly unlikely,” and it’s not something you hear talked about much in health care debates.

When Todd asked Black whether she would get rid of the law, she replied, “I would get rid of a law that says that you ― you are not allowed, as a health care professional, to make that decision about whether someone can be appropriately treated the next day, or at a walk-in clinic, or at their doctor.”

Also, technically, no doctor or hospital is required to see anybody. But treating all patients is a requirement for hospitals using Medicare funds. So already, a doctor or hospital can turn people away ― as Black suggests they should be able to do ― they just won’t get to bill Medicare.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-lawma...163051252.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
Yet strangely enough, we have been doing otherwise as long as you have been saying this and somehow have survived.

The argument is over who should pay for ER care. As it stands, the hospital picks up the tab and passes it on to the paying customers.

If you believe that government is somehow responsible for those who choose not to cover themselves then government should pick up the tab.
__________________
My signature line has been censored by the man.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:55 PM
GetAClue's Avatar
Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Ohio
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,201
Thanks: 1,559
Thanked 971 Times in 555 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You really don't understand what you are talking about. We have universal healthcare now. Everyone can go to the ER, and when they are sick enough they get lifesaving care. Very ineffective and why the ER is so expensive. If you want to not have universal healthcare you have to be able to deny some patients healthcare. I know this is difficult. It is not what you have been told but very germane the OP. We have always paid for everyone's healthcare, just in the most profitable way possible. If there was profit in clinics we would have more clinics. A healthcare system is complicated, who'd a thunk?

One major difference between the current system (at least before the ACA came along and threw a major monkey wrench into it) is that if I am not happy with my insurance provider or my HC provider, I can choose to shop for a better alternative. Prior to the ACA, I did that on more than one occasion.

But when you get into single payer, they are the only game in town and you have no options. Don't like that some DC bureaucrat has decided that you really don't need that operation or that medicine? Too bad. You're stuck. Who do you appeal too? Are you going to sue them? Of course not, it's the government.

I'm sorry, but I will gladly take the free market system (which we have not had in quite some time due to government intrusion into the market) over a government run, single payer system with few alternatives.
__________________
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead - Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GetAClue For This Useful Post:
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 05:03 PM
Lumara's Avatar
Belly Dance Queen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Great Smoky Mountains
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,783
Thanks: 2,372
Thanked 2,219 Times in 1,070 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
Then think about who pays for it. Hospitals don't absorb diddly.
Yes, they do. Medical services provided to non-paying illegal immigrants have caused some hospitals to close.


Quote:
The problem is succinctly described by the following authorities on the subject:

“What is unseen is their [illegal aliens’] free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors,” Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq., “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005.

"We're running an H.M.O. for illegal immigrants and if we keep it up, we're going to bankrupt the county,” Los Angeles County supervisor Michael D. Antonovich, New York Times, May 21, 2003. https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...mergency-rooms

Quote:
Hospital closings in California remain a major concern. As Examiner.com reported recently in a story about the economic burden to taxpayers posed by illegal immigrants, "In 2003, the American Southwest saw 77 hospitals enter bankruptcy due to unpaid medical bills incurred by illegal aliens."
Retreating on illegal immigration - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
__________________
Every time someone tells me "You're gonna regret that in the morning" I sleep in until noon because I'm a problem solver.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 05:11 PM
Surly's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,789
Thanks: 2,659
Thanked 2,897 Times in 2,256 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

OMG, which ones? how profitable were they before and who was President then? Besides my idea of universal healthcare doesn't include illegal aliens. Stablize and ship them. Which is, by the way, all our law has ever required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
Yes, they do. Medical services provided to non-paying illegal immigrants have caused some hospitals to close.
__________________
My signature line has been censored by the man.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 05:59 PM
Manitou's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 17,625
Thanks: 177
Thanked 5,239 Times in 3,809 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
If we pay for every ones healthcare that's universal healthcare. I have explained this to you before.
How about no?
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 06:12 PM
foundit66's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,725
Thanks: 9,755
Thanked 14,847 Times in 8,985 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Most people, regardless of political affiliation, don't believe in 'kicking people unable to pay to the curb.'
You'll note I specified the greedy philosophy leads to that conclusion.
I didn't say that the position was actually adhered to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
The difference between people receiving care at an ER and having 'insurance, is that 'you' pay for the insurance even if they don't receive care. At least at the ER, you know they have received care.
That is a difference. Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Most states will try and backtrack to those who have had care at the ER, and didn't, for whatever reason, pay, and if they file state income taxes, deduct it if any refund is due.
Do you have any statistics on how much money is collected that way?

Cause a lot of that money comes from the taxpayers...
“This is not a trivial thing for a hospital to deal with,” Garthwaite said. While hospitals average 7% profit margins, uncompensated care costs can be more than 5% of revenue.

Hospitals do get help with the unpaid bills – from taxpayers.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-er/445756001/
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., in a May 11 statement announcing policy options for expanding health care coverage, said: "The cost of that care is paid by every American with insurance in the form of a hidden tax of more than $1,000 a year in increased premiums."
Study: Insured pay 'hidden tax' for uninsured health care
I'm trying to find the link that talks about how much state / federal governments compensate hospitals for such unpaid bills, but having some difficulties...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Those who don't pay, or do not have a refund due, will usually go to collection agencies. There are any number who cannot pay, and those are the ones added to the costs of those who can.
Again, how successful are those collection agencies?

Jesus Christ. When it comes to raising corporate taxes, the right loves to proclaim "it's the end customer who pays the tax"
But with unpaid emergency room bills that jump into the tens of thousands (if not higher), do you think it's just a collection agency that's needed?
__________________
“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”
~Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by foundit66; 10-19-2017 at 10:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2017, 09:29 PM
Mikeyy's Avatar
Enchanted One
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PNW
Gender: Male
Posts: 70,368
Thanks: 22,383
Thanked 18,878 Times in 13,903 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

That doesn't sound like what they do in Australia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
One major difference between the current system (at least before the ACA came along and threw a major monkey wrench into it) is that if I am not happy with my insurance provider or my HC provider, I can choose to shop for a better alternative. Prior to the ACA, I did that on more than one occasion.

But when you get into single payer, they are the only game in town and you have no options. Don't like that some DC bureaucrat has decided that you really don't need that operation or that medicine? Too bad. You're stuck. Who do you appeal too? Are you going to sue them? Of course not, it's the government.

I'm sorry, but I will gladly take the free market system (which we have not had in quite some time due to government intrusion into the market) over a government run, single payer system with few alternatives.
__________________
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:22 AM
GetAClue's Avatar
Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Ohio
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,201
Thanks: 1,559
Thanked 971 Times in 555 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
That doesn't sound like what they do in Australia.
Then move to Australia.
__________________
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead - Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GetAClue For This Useful Post:
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:51 AM
GottaGo's Avatar
Sanity is overrated.
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miles to go before I sleep
Posts: 10,712
Thanks: 8,340
Thanked 6,870 Times in 4,436 Posts
Default Re: GOP Lawmaker Says Emergency Rooms Should Be Able To Turn People Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You'll note I specified the greedy philosophy leads to that conclusion.
I didn't say that the position was actually adhered to.

That is a difference. Yes.

Do you have any statistics on how much money is collected that way?

Cause a lot of that money comes from the taxpayers...
“This is not a trivial thing for a hospital to deal with,” Garthwaite said. While hospitals average 7% profit margins, uncompensated care costs can be more than 5% of revenue.

Hospitals do get help with the unpaid bills – from taxpayers.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-er/445756001/
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., in a May 11 statement announcing policy options for expanding health care coverage, said: "The cost of that care is paid by every American with insurance in the form of a hidden tax of more than $1,000 a year in increased premiums."
Study: Insured pay 'hidden tax' for uninsured health care
I'm trying to find the link that talks about how much state / federal governments compensate hospitals for such unpaid bills, but having some difficulties...

Again, how successful are those collection agencies?

Jesus Christ. When it comes to raising corporate taxes, the right loves to proclaim "it's the end customer who pays the tax"
But with unpaid emergency room bills that jump into the tens of thousands (if not higher), do you think it's just a collection agency that's needed?
I have no ready statistics for the amounts recouped from taxpayers, but I know it is done, as spouse received care at a ER prior to being my spouse, which was supposed to be Worker's comp. Never received a bill for any balance. After we married, and I had filed for a state income tax refund, my refund was reduced by what the ER said was the balance due the hospital, received a letter from the state saying so.

Hospitals negotiate bills with the uninsured all the time, nothing new there. Those that fail to adhere to payment plans made go to collections. I handle payroll garnishments all the time for outstanding medical bills.

The amount paid by insurance companies to hospitals is not always a flat amount, but a percentage of what is charged, usually referred to as U&C. The amount a hospital charges will include 'overhead', which is inclusive of unpaid/uncollectable receivables, in addition to 'real' overhead.
__________________
Your life is the sum total of the choices you make.
If you can't laugh at yourself, you might as well get embalmed
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
able, away, emergency, gop, lawmaker, people, rooms, says, should, turn

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0