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Open Discussion Discuss Confederate statues and NFL players at the General Forum; Originally Posted by AZRWinger .. These so-called protests are designed to reinforce the tribalism necessary for the Left's identity politics. ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
..
These so-called protests are designed to reinforce the tribalism necessary for the Left's identity politics. Solving the problem is counter productive to achieving this objective.
While I'm against "identity politics", or people using various REAL problems to promote it and other BS agendas. I think it's a LAME excuse to focus on those that have bad motives within a protest and IGNORE the real constitutional, human rights and american justice system issues.

There are real innocent bodies laying in their graves. so to complain that you won't look, and YOU won't solve/address the problems because you don't like some of the messenger's assumed "real" motives and "offensive" presentation is ultimately LAME.
Just LAME excuses.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
so was it wrong for people from says the 1930s - 1970s to be patriotic?
Since America was "imperfect" then?
Even then, I cannot think of a single country that was more wonderful than America.

Are you suggesting, then, that no country was worthy of patriotism at that time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
And IMO the American ideals ARE what make us great, not our imperfect reality... of any era.
I beg to differ.

The "ideals," if perfectly lived up to, would make America a true paradise.

The "imperfect reality," on the other hand, still makes America the greatest country on Earth, in my opinion.

Do you believe you can name a better one?)
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It has not been long since the American left was chastising those who held onto their Confederate emblems (such as statues).

One would be reasonable, I think, to assume that they meant that we should all pledge our fealty to the US, rather than to the Confederacy.

Yet there are now some who refuse to do the former (the recent antics of NFL players leap to mind).

And the American left is now on the side of those who do not show any love or patriotism toward the US.

Does this strike others as a double standard?
This seems to mingle different subjects into the same topic in an effort to create erroneous conclusions.

Confederate monuments -

The Confederacy was an armed insurrection against the Constitutional government of the United States. An armed insurrection against the Constitutional government of the United States is addressed in Article III Section 3 of the Constitution:

Quote:
* Section 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
Every person involved in the Confederacy was a traitor under the Constitution. They only avoided prosecution, conviction, imprisonment, and in some cases execution because of the 64 general Presidential pardons issued by President Lincoln.

The Confederate monuments in question were created based upon the same ideology (i.e. White Protestant Male Supremacy) of those that engaged in the treasonous armed insurrection between 1861-1865 and the motivation was not actually about preserving the history of the past.

Quote:
"Most of the people who were involved in erecting the monuments were not necessarily erecting a monument to the past," said Jane Dailey, an associate professor of history at the University of Chicago. "But were rather, erecting them toward a white supremacist future."
Why Were Confederate Monuments Built? : NPR

In short the monuments were as much about future treason as they were about past treason. They are a disgrace to anyone that believes in the Constitutional government of the United States and they're especially offensive those of us that have served in the US military and honor those that have sacrificed, often with their lives, to defend the Constitution of the United States. We cannot honor those that have fallen in defense of the Constitution and those that were responsible for their death. Had it not been for Lincoln's pardons individuals like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson would most certainly have been executed for treason just based upon the number of deaths of American (Union) soldiers they were responsible for. Lee was responsible for over 23,000 American (Union) soldier deaths in the three days of Gettysburg alone.

These monuments must be removed from places of honor because there is no honor for the traitor. We do need to remember our history and these statutes should not be destroyed. They need to be moved to a display of "Dishonor" because treason is dishonorable but it shouldn't be forgotten.

NFL Players

There is an official flag protocol for demonstrating respect for the American Flag in the Flag Code.

U.S. Flag Code: How to Respect the Flag | Military.com

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't include standing, placing your hand over your heart or saluting by those in uniform during the playing of the National Anthem.

The Flag Code does not state or imply that noncompliance with it's protocol represents disrespect of the American Flag. The Flag Code merely establishes how someone can show respect for the American Flag. Additionally following the Flag Code does not imply that the person following the protocol actually respects the American Flag. Respecting the American Flag is accomplished by the actions of the person that embraces and takes actions based the ideology that the Flag represents.

The NFL Player that choose to kneel as opposed to standing and placing their hand over their heart are not being disrespectful to the American Flag. Contrary to that they're showing the greatest respect for the American Flag by protesting the actions of others that violate what the Flag stand for.

They're protesting the actions of law enforcement officers like former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio that engaged his department in unconstitutional racial profiling of minorities. Even after being found guilty of that Constitutional violation and ordered by a federal court to stop, Arpiao continued to commit those acts in defiance of the Rule of Law and the US Constitution that our American Flag stands for. Joe Arpaio has demonstrated through is actions that he doesn't respect the American Flag because he's never respected what it stands for.

Of course Joe Arpaio and Donald Trump are cozy-up friends.... and that may be why Trump's attacking the NFL players. They're right, he's wrong, and Trump's narcissistic personality disorder prevents him from ever recognizing when he's wrong.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2017, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Even then, I cannot think of a single country that was more wonderful than America.

Are you suggesting, then, that no country was worthy of patriotism at that time?
I explained pretty clearly in that same post what I why I thought America has been worthy of patriotism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I beg to differ.

The "ideals," if perfectly lived up to, would make America a true paradise.
agreed, as close to one as we could get on earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The "imperfect reality," on the other hand, still makes America the greatest country on Earth, in my opinion.
Do you believe you can name a better one?)
I'm to provincial to know if any other countries are any "better" overall.
It's far easier for me to name WORSE countries.
but again in my other post I was pretty clear on why i think America is worthy of patrotism. But I'm sure those raised in other countries have good reason to be patrotic to theirs as well.

But as a matter of the imperfect reality goes, well there are aspects of various countries that are in reality better or worse or about the same as the U.S..
Based on your question I suppose people would have to choose which aspects collectively they prefer overall to make their case for patriotism. If we're going solely on the RAW reality of the "better" aspects of current living.
But I don't think that's how you come by your patriotism, is it?
Do you mainly compare the U.S to other countries and only after that comparison say 'I love America"?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2017, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
This seems to mingle different subjects into the same topic in an effort to create erroneous conclusions.

Confederate monuments -

The Confederacy was an armed insurrection against the Constitutional government of the United States. An armed insurrection against the Constitutional government of the United States is addressed in Article III Section 3 of the Constitution:



Every person involved in the Confederacy was a traitor under the Constitution. They only avoided prosecution, conviction, imprisonment, and in some cases execution because of the 64 general Presidential pardons issued by President Lincoln.

The Confederate monuments in question were created based upon the same ideology (i.e. White Protestant Male Supremacy) of those that engaged in the treasonous armed insurrection between 1861-1865 and the motivation was not actually about preserving the history of the past.


Why Were Confederate Monuments Built? : NPR

In short the monuments were as much about future treason as they were about past treason. They are a disgrace to anyone that believes in the Constitutional government of the United States and they're especially offensive those of us that have served in the US military and honor those that have sacrificed, often with their lives, to defend the Constitution of the United States. We cannot honor those that have fallen in defense of the Constitution and those that were responsible for their death. Had it not been for Lincoln's pardons individuals like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson would most certainly have been executed for treason just based upon the number of deaths of American (Union) soldiers they were responsible for. Lee was responsible for over 23,000 American (Union) soldier deaths in the three days of Gettysburg alone.

These monuments must be removed from places of honor because there is no honor for the traitor. We do need to remember our history and these statutes should not be destroyed. They need to be moved to a display of "Dishonor" because treason is dishonorable but it shouldn't be forgotten.

NFL Players

There is an official flag protocol for demonstrating respect for the American Flag in the Flag Code.

U.S. Flag Code: How to Respect the Flag | Military.com

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't include standing, placing your hand over your heart or saluting by those in uniform during the playing of the National Anthem.

The Flag Code does not state or imply that noncompliance with it's protocol represents disrespect of the American Flag. The Flag Code merely establishes how someone can show respect for the American Flag. Additionally following the Flag Code does not imply that the person following the protocol actually respects the American Flag. Respecting the American Flag is accomplished by the actions of the person that embraces and takes actions based the ideology that the Flag represents.

The NFL Player that choose to kneel as opposed to standing and placing their hand over their heart are not being disrespectful to the American Flag. Contrary to that they're showing the greatest respect for the American Flag by protesting the actions of others that violate what the Flag stand for.

They're protesting the actions of law enforcement officers like former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio that engaged his department in unconstitutional racial profiling of minorities. Even after being found guilty of that Constitutional violation and ordered by a federal court to stop, Arpiao continued to commit those acts in defiance of the Rule of Law and the US Constitution that our American Flag stands for. Joe Arpaio has demonstrated through is actions that he doesn't respect the American Flag because he's never respected what it stands for.

Of course Joe Arpaio and Donald Trump are cozy-up friends.... and that may be why Trump's attacking the NFL players. They're right, he's wrong, and Trump's narcissistic personality disorder prevents him from ever recognizing when he's wrong.
(1) I am really not a diehard fan of the Confederacy. But to say that the Confederacy "was an armed insurrection against the Constitutional government of the United States" is to assume that the 11 states that comprised the Confederacy were a part of the United States.

They were not.

That is what secession is all about.

(2) I have not "mingle[d]" anything. I have merely drawn an analogy.

(3) I seriously doubt that the protests were ever about Sheriff Joe Arpaio. They seemed generic enough, to begin with; although they seemed to morph into anti-Trump protests (especially after he spoke against them).

(4) You frequently speak of "White Protestant Male Supremacy," as though that were a virtual given. Yet no one the other side of the hard left seems to believe that America is guilty as charged, of this sort of bigotry.

Do you consider yourself to be a part of the hard left?
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2017, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Confederate statues and NFL players

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I'm sure those raised in other countries have good reason to be patrotic to theirs as well.
One would certainly think so. (At least, assuming that the country in question is neither authoritarian nor totalitarian.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
But as a matter of the imperfect reality goes, well there are aspects of various countries that are in reality better or worse or about the same as the U.S..
In what areas, exactly, do you imagine that some other countries are "better" than the US?

Would one, perhaps, be universal healthcare?

Personally, I would much prefer a pre-New Deal America...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
Do you mainly compare the U.S to other countries and only after that comparison say 'I love America"?
Love is at least as much of an emotional tie as it is an objective conclusion.

Based upon either, however, I can truly say that I love America.
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