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Originally Posted by Attila the Sooner
First of all there has NEVER been "unregulated capitalism" thats anarchism. In the late 1800s and early 1900s there was under-regulated capitalism.
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Under-regulated may as well be "unregulated". The other thing is you're looking at it in this country only - I'm talking about the world.
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To equalize the genocide of tens and very possibly over 100,000,000 DEATHS to a singe fire or a labor battle or child labor really borders on obscene. And since when is intentional genocide morally equivalent to any of those things. I hate to say this but you put yourself in rhetorical quicksand here.l
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You'd have a point if I were equating it with one fire or item. The difference is one of scale agreed, but it doesn't make it any less deadly for those effected.
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I'll agree most of them didnt, but far far too many did.
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Very few. I imagine that those defenders number in a similar range to defenders of human trafficking.
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My point is there are far more genocidal communist dictators than any other variety.
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Genocidal dictators are certainly a problem.
Check them out.... Not all those listed are dictators - it's a list of what the author considers "genocides" (not sure I agree with all he lists either) but if we pick out the species we see 8 "Communist" regime dictators. I would argue the issue isn't one of "Communism" but one of genocidal dictators with unusually small genitalia.
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And if you want reduce communism to communal living you could go back father to the earliest settlers in America on the Mayflower who virtually starved to death before giving up on their collectivism.
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I believe I've heard that but I've also heard it is a disputed claim - can you offer a source that is at least unbiased?
If you look at the definition of communism (taken from Wikipedia)
Communism (from Latin communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.
and Kibbutz:
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ, קִבּוּץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; plural kibbutzim) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.[1] Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of Collectivism and Zionism. In recent decades, some kibbutzim have been privatized and changes have been made in the communal lifestyle. A member of a kibbutz is called a kibbutznik (Hebrew: קִבּוּצְנִיק).
...you can see it is more than "communal living". Communism isn't all bad. What matters is whether it's under a totalitarian rule which is the same for any other system.
Btw - I'm not arguing that communism is "good" or "bad" or that it works. Like most ideologies and political systems (including Libertarianism and even Democracy) it looks great in theory but it gets messy in application. People need some individual incentive to put forth their best effort. A collective approach can work well in certain situations (for example range-sharing for cattle in the alps) but it does not provide enough incentive for the individual to be a successful economic approach. Even the kibbutz's ultimately had to alter their outlook and incorporate some degree of capitalism in order to be competitive. It works best in a voluntary small community but not as a pure ideology.
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Can you provide any kind of statistical verification of this assertion? One that is can be documented and verified?
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I provided a source that is fairly accurate and even states numbers can be hazy. Even given that - they would have to be WAY off to significantly alter the claim.
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I would maintain that first of all welfare done right is as rare as benevolent Communism it looks great on paper but never really materializes. One only has to look at the urban slums of America to see multi-generational government dependence and the acceptance of that situation by those at the bottom of the income ladder as proof of that enslavement. To be sure it is not a physical enslavement, but is an intellectual, emotional, spiritual and moral enslavement.
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But so is poverty...
Welfare isn't perfect and never will be. It's current system can certainly be improved upon. However - I would argue that as bad as it can be - it is still better than what was in place before which left huge numbers of people enslaved and suffering in very real poverty - something our country hasn't known in several generations. Very few people overall were able to escape that bondage.
07-05-2012, 09:37 PM
Re: Attila's Axioms
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