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Open Discussion Discuss Pull the plug on israel? at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Mikeyy What have I said that is bigoted? You do not have to say anything that is ...

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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:18 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
What have I said that is bigoted?
You do not have to say anything that is bigoted to be bigoted - all you need to do is express criticism of any sort with Israeli policies. Any support for Palestinian rights to a homeland is anti-semitic.

Warning: substantial use of sarcasm has been applied to this post.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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I agree......
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:44 AM
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Post Re: Pull the plug on israel?

[QUOTE=Pretty Flamingo;449299]'Chosen' to receive the Torah. That is what is meant by 'the Chosen People.'

You don't believe in their history. That is your prerogative. but as I said before you need to open your eyes and stop believing that the arabs want peace, because it is clear all over that peace is the last thing they

[/QUOTE

Perhaps this will help with the discussion:

Historically, the high water mark of the first Muslim expansion ended in France at the battle of Tours (or Poitiers) in 732. A king named Charles Martel turned back what had been, up to that time, an apparently invincible force. Islam made it to India in the east and to France in the west. The Mediterranean had become a Muslim lake.

The next period of attempted Muslim expansion into Europe was centuries later. The Ottoman Turks were defeated in the great siege of Malta (1565) and the sea battle of Lepanto 1571 and finally turned back from the walls of Vienna in 1683. But Jerusalem, from virtually the beginning of the Muslim expansion, was under the authority of the "house of Islam."

To understand this, we have to realize that the holy book of the Muslims, the Koran, is organized not chronologically but by length. The "peace" verses and the "war" verses in the Koran are all jumbled together. But the peace verses were from Muhammad's first Mecca period, when he was initially trying to persuade Jews and Christians, and they were subsequently abrogated by the jihad verses that began in Medina, when Muhammad turned to the sword.

Christian forms of non-Zionism need not be anti-Semitic, and for believing Christians, it must not be. But Muslim opposition to Jews and Israel is virulently anti-Semitic, and unfortunately, this attitude is grounded in the Koran. So long as the Koran is considered to be the word of Allah, this aspect of the problem cannot be solved. The final (and binding) revelation given to Muhammad about Jews (and Christians) was this: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:39). This explains Arab hatred toward Christian and Jews, and continues into the modern era, even to the 9/11 attack and the Al Quida threat.

The difficulty for fundamentalist Muslims is that the need for warlike violence toward Christians and Jews is grounded in their sacred text, while at the same time success on the battlefield has eluded them for centuries. In the early centuries, they were on a roll and their theology matched what was actually happening. But since the siege of Malta, the battle of Lepanto, the siege of Vienna, and down into our century, they have had a theology OF violence that has been consistently bested AT violence.

The Seljuk Turks had captured Jerusalem. Although the previous rulers in Jerusalem were also Muslim, they had allowed Christian pilgrims and Christian worship. Under the Seljuk Turks, various atrocities were committed that inflamed Christians everywhere. The Seljuk Turks pillaged and murdered; they desecrated holy places and something in Europe popped.

After Islam had exploded out of Arabia in the 7th century, Muslims had put Europe in a defensive posture completely for three centuries. The Muslims had not overrun Europe entirely, but it was not exactly because of a lack of trying. When this new state of affairs blew up in the Holy Land with the Seljuk Turks, Europe was finally ready to fight back. The Crusades were a belated military response of Christian Europe to over three centuries of Muslim aggression against Christian lands, the systemic mistreatment of the indigenous Christian population of those lands, and harassment of Christian pilgrims.

From a balanced historical perspective, we have to acknowledge the atrocities on the Christian side. When this sort of thing erupts, the Bible does not encourage us to recognize the defense of, "Well - they started it." The Muslims did start it and they had been militarily provocative for centuries. So, when the Christians finally fought back, they did not always fight clean or with the purist motives. They matched Islamic atrocity for atrocity.

Tension in the Middle East today, centered in Jerusalem, is the result of two major developments. First was the gradual eclipse of Islamic power, becoming undeniable and irreversible by the 19th century. Second was the rise of Zionism or Jewish nationalism. For many centuries, the world of Islam was in the forefront of human civilization and achievement, then, suddenly, the relationship changed. Even before the Renaissance, Europeans were beginning to make significant progress in the civilized arts. They advanced by leaps and bounds, leaving the scientific and technological and eventually the cultural heritage of the Islamic world far behind them. The Muslims, for a long time, remained unaware of this.

Zionism accelerated after the Second World War and the Holocaust, but it was by no means created by either event. The British had offered the Zionists a homeland in Uganda, which they declined. Zionism meant a homeland in Palestine, not just a homeland somewhere. The legacy of Israel and Jerusalem is a spiritual one. The city has entered the spiritual consciousness of all history and all nations, and it has done so for all time. The territory of Jerusalem will remain a holy site for Muslims, a holy city for devout Jews and Christian pilgrims will continue to go to Jerusalem in order to walk where Jesus walked. All this is as it should be. The reason a Jewish homeland (Israel) had to be in Palestine was ultimately theological.

The establishment of the modern state of Israel is a fascinating story, but not a smooth one. Jerusalem was still under the Turks, but in the tangled politics surrounding the First World War, Britain endorsed the Zionist cause. That came in the form of the Balfour Declaration in 1917. British Foreign Secretary wrote the British intent "His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object." That same year, General Sir Edmund Allenby bloodlessly captured Jerusalem from the Turks, ending their four hundred-year stint there. Just a few years later, the league of Nations gave the Mandate of Palestine to the British government, and the declaration by Lord Balfour was in the official charter.

With the emergence of Zionism in the early twentieth century, the Muslims faced a "Jewish problem" for the first time since Mohammad. This time they faced it from a position of weakness, with the Jews for the first time since the destruction of the Temple poised to reestablish a policy that would be territorial as well as spiritual and cultural. The result was a massive outpouring of raw hatred, as atavistic and vitriolic as anything seen in Hitler's Germany, with the important difference that Nazism could not claim any scriptural grounding or divine mandate (as the Muslims could from the Koran), even if it had wished for one.

So Zionism was the doctrine that resulted in the establishment of the modern nation of Israel. You do not have to think 19th century Zionism was a great idea, or is even relevant today, to be willing to acknowledge that Israel's presence there NOW is an accomplished fact. Another doctrine that functioned in the United States in the 19th century provides a helpful analogy, Manifest Destiny, the idea that the United States was destined to settle this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific. One hundred years after the fact, someone can believe that Manifest Destiny was a pernicious doctrine, but nobody thinks we should abandon America west of the Mississippi, and bring back the Native American Indian's.

Islamic hatred of Christian and Jews comes from their holy scriptures, and hasn't disappeared from the Arab culture for almost 500 years. Letting the Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian's, grounded in terrorism, establish a state adjacent to Israel, without them first denouncing hatred and violence TOWARD Israel, would be suicide. Israel is there to stay, and, although their methods of dealing with Arab violence are not always clean, any more than the Christian Crusades were, it is necessary, until the Islamic mindset changes.

***** Five Cities That Ruled The World - Douglas Wilson ***** An excellent read.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Flamingo View Post
Nobody is saying either people are not 'whole.'

The arabs refused the land offered to them. The Jews accepted it.

At the moment with the size of Israel as it is it is apparently the size of New Jersey. Why can't the Jews be able to live in their own land which they have been driven from in the past, where there have been proof of Jewish habitation there from a couple or more thousand years ago, and which land has legally been reonstituted to them by the League of Nations.

The fact that people on various forums deny the Jews their LEGAL right to live in peace in their own land is so tragic it is almost laughable and really does show people's true colours.
Why can't the Palestinians have those same rights? Everything you say can also apply to them.

Why must it be so one sided, when we are dealing with real people here - not just stereotypical groups?
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
Why can't the Palestinians have those same rights? Everything you say can also apply to them.

Why must it be so one sided, when we are dealing with real people here - not just stereotypical groups?
Here is why......


History tells the story......

History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Flamingo View Post
The arabs living in Israel are perfectly happy and as I have posted several times have even petitioned the Knesset not to give away land which they reside in to an arab controlled state. Living and working side by side arabs and Israelis get on absolutely fine and are perfectly happy under Israeli governance where they can be as homosexual as they want, get tip-top medical care, have all the benefits that living in a free society gives them, and have plenty of work.

Seriously Mikeyy, you really need to inform yourself of facts.
That too is debatable.

While they would far prefer to live under Israeli governance than, say - Syria's Basheer or The Saudi Kingdom, that also doesn't mean they are "perfectly happy". It's a bit like saying "...even though we are treated like second-class citizens in Israel, it beats the hell out of sitting in a Saudi jail with my hand cut off while my daughter is being stoned". True, it is FAR better, but that also minimizes the very real inequities and abuses that do go on and in this regard - the Israeli media and human rights groups are far more forthright and honest than the American media.

Just for example - Arabs in Israel do NOT have the same rights as Jews in Israel. I've posted this before, but it usually gets ignored in a fury of rhetoric and drama

Arabs are routinely denied building and expansion permits. In 2008 Israel finally approved the construction of ONE new Arab village - since the establishment of the State of Israel, not a single new Arab settlement has been established, with the exception of permanent housing projects for Bedouins in the Negev. There have been hundreds of new Jewish settlements an illegal settlements are seldom prosecuted. No wonder the Arab citizens get the reputation for being dirty, overcrowded and abusing their resources they have no choice but to build illegally and then, of course - they have no infrastructure to support them and can be torn down at any time. Any expansion in Israel requires permits...which are frequently denied to Arab Israeli's.

Non-Jewish citizens are frequently unable to purchase land, which is held via a trust arrangement, for Jewish citizens only - and, no surprise here - much of the land falls into that category.

Or consider education: a report by the Committee for Arab Education noted that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student. That is a significant difference. The issue actually went to the Israeli Supreme Court in 2006 when the discrepency between Arab and Jewish communities were given "national priority zone" status (granting them extra resources for social and educational needs). The Arab sector lags far behind in education yet only 4 Arab communities (and 500 Jewish communities) were granted this status.

Water - a strategic resource in this area is also inequitably distributed with Jewish citizens recieving three times the alotment that Arab citizens receive.

When land gets confiscated for settlement expansion...well....who's land do you suppose it is? Then, there are Jewish-only roads that Arab citizens are forbidden from using, which means that they must travel a considerably longer distance, through checkpoints to reach their homes, places of work, or portions of farmland cut off from their habitations.

If they have the "same rights" - those rights seem to exist only on paper or in propaganda.

These are the sorts of issues that give Israel a black eye amidst their fellow western democratic nations and these are the sort of issues that deserve to be examined and talked about. Any attempt to do so however, is met with accusations of anti-semitism, or "why are you picking on Israel when it's neighbors are so much worse" which effectively diverts the topic and shuts off discourse.

Should we turn a blind eye because the abuses of one country are not as bad as the abuses of it's neighbors? Should we pretend they don't exist? If so, then shame on us and kudos for those Israeli people who have the integrity to talk aloud about these and attempt to bring Israel closer to being the just, pluralistic and inspiring nation that they dreamed of.
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
Why can't the Palestinians have those same rights? Everything you say can also apply to them.

Why must it be so one sided, when we are dealing with real people here - not just stereotypical groups?
Remember the Gaza disengagement. Look what happened there!

Arabs don't just want some land. They want land that they are not entitled to. They have had their chances before of land and have refused instead wanting the whole land of Israel, not just a portion.

You have admitted you don't watch youtube videos, so I doubt whether you will watch this,

or will you???


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Old 06-29-2012, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

Even today a Jewish settlement has been forcibly demolished because it is 'Palestinian' land so it works both ways Coyote.

Jewish only roads exist because of safety concerns.
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2012, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Flamingo View Post


In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.

CAMERA: Zionist Misquote: Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel
Good point - thank you for the correction. That's one of the problems with using quotes sometimes, it's hard to know if they are complete or if context is also lacking.

However, Israeli land purchases occurred from the 1840's until 1948, when Israel became a nation. After that point - a lot of land has been confiscated for various reasons, not purchased since that point. This also shows quite clearly that the land was not barren of indiginous peoples. There were people there and they were Jews and Arabs and other minority groups.
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: Pull the plug on israel?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Flamingo View Post
Even today a Jewish settlement has been forcibly demolished because it is 'Palestinian' land so it works both ways Coyote.

Jewish only roads exist because of safety concerns.
It's very uncommon for Jewish settlements to be demolished.

How many have been demolished? A handful?

How many have been allowed to stay?

How many have been given tacit permission to expand? How many illegal Arab settlements have been allowed to expand or stay or receive services?

Palestinian village faces demolition by Israel - Boston.com
Quote:
Critics say Israel has blocked virtually all Palestinian development in Area C, while expanding the Jewish settlements there. Only 5 percent of Palestinian requests for building permits in Area C have been granted in recent years, said Alon Cohen-Lif****z of the Israeli group Bimkom, which calls for fair planning practices.
and

Quote:
Susiya's defenders say it's more vulnerable to displacement than some of the other villages in the area. The village is flanked by a Jewish settlement and the ruins of a centuries-old Jewish town of the same name.

Susiya residents lived in the area of the ruins until it was declared an archaeological site and they were forced to leave in the mid-1980s. Some left for other Palestinian communities, while others settled a few hundred yards away, on land Nawaja says is privately owned by him and his relatives.

Since Israel did not recognize the community, it was not hooked up to electricity or water grids, while the settlement of Susiya and several unauthorized Jewish outposts in the area receive such services, said Sfard.
And also, on Susiya: “Civil Administration” and Settlers Join Forces to Destroy Palestinian Susya. Did the Court Wink and Nod? The Villages Group: Cooperation in Israel-Palestine
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