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cnredd 12-18-2007 04:39 AM

Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
You want backwards?..You got backwards...:crazy

Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night

Quote:

When Aisha Salim marries her fiance in Pakistan next March, it will be the wedding of her dreams.

Wearing a veil and gown, she will be every inch the fairytale virgin bride and as befits her strict Muslim religion, after the ceremony, she will hand her blooded wedding-night sheets to her in-laws as proof of her virginity.

But far from being the traditional untouched bride that many Muslim families demand, she is a modern-day university graduate who has smoked, drunk, made love to - and even lived with - a previous English boyfriend.

To disguise the fact that she has had sex, she has paid for painful surgery to "restore" her virginity.

It is a drastic and costly measure but as she takes her husband's hand in marriage, she knows it is one which may - quite literally - save her life.

The horror and outrage that would ensue if it was discovered she had already slept with a man would be so damning that her own strictly religious relatives might kill her rather than face public shame.

"My virginity was restored in a delicate operation just last week, and I honestly view it as life-saving surgery," says Aisha.

"If my husband cannot prove to his family that I am a virgin, I would be hounded, ostracised and sent home in disgrace. My father, who is a devout Muslim, would regard it as the ultimate shame.

"The entire family could be cast out from the friends and society they hold dear, and I honestly believe that one of my fanatically religious cousins or uncles might kill me in revenge, to purge them of my sins. Incredible as it may seem, honour killings are still accepted within our religion.

"Ever since my family arranged this marriage for me, I've been terrified that, on my wedding night, my secret would come out. It has only been since my surgery last week that I've actually been able to sleep properly. Now, I can look forward to my marriage."
This is jaw dropping from so many angles it's almost incomprehensible...:eek

Let's recap...

1) She's British, but is going to be in arranged marriage...

2) Because of her surgery she now looks forward to her arranged marriage...

3) She's intentionally lying in her relationship...

4) She going to show bloody sheets to the families to prove virginity...

5) Failing to be a virgin for marriage is a death sentence...

6) This death sentence will be carried out by her own family...

Fundamental Islam...Setting women's (and humanity's) rights back to the Stone Age...:rolls

saltwn 12-18-2007 12:26 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
I was acquainted with a Syrian couple a few years back, who were dreading their two daughters' teen years. They desperately wanted to make enough money to move back to their home country.
They were like many of us in that they really
didn't know just how different the West was from the East till they encountered it face to face.
They were concerned about protecting their daughters from America's culture.
Who is to say what is right or wrong within another's core belief system?
The rituals that we (and they) see as barbaric in the other are tied to what has kept us each from disappearing from the face of the earth: Faith.
But now that the word is out, I wish these people would take more precautions allowing their children access to Western culture.:)

Spencer Collins 12-18-2007 12:59 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Fundamental Islam...Setting women's (and humanity's) rights back to the Stone Age
I'm speechless...and they fear western civilization?..:cool

KnightOfSappho 12-18-2007 02:08 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer Collins (Post 10421)
I'm speechless...and they fear western civilization?..:cool

Unfortunately, there are assorted cultures that do horrible things in the name of religion.


Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt | World | The Observer

fxashun 12-18-2007 02:16 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
I'm with Salt...The parents made it through life under these rules and it's not the population of the Muslim countries is suddenly plummeting. These "rules based on religion" might seem extreme, but it's just discipline as far as I'm concerned. They don't have a culture where a dude can walk down the middle of the street in a leather S@M suit while his boyfriend hits him with a whip.

All she really had to do was not screw. She knew to consequences. And they are probably worse if her lie gets found out.

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 02:21 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho (Post 10460)
Unfortunately, there are assorted cultures that do horrible things in the name of religion.


Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt | World | The Observer

Yep...That's the truth. And thing is...It's also a social phenominon, not just a religious one.

Jewish traditions in some countries, still hold to to the tradition of stoning a girl if she's thought to have had pre-maritial sex and broken her 'marriage contract'...In Asian countries young girls are killed by their parents if the parents feel that the young girl has lost her virginity outside of marriage. Certain African tribal customs hold a similar viewpoint in regards/reactions to the issue of 'purity' of the bride...And in Western cultures(especially the US) there's been instances that because of that religous punishment, some girls have resorted to suicide rather then live with that type of punishment...Or killed their new born to hide from family/congregation that they weren't 'chaste/pure' anymore.

Seems to me, that irregardless of society/culture/religious views, we still have a ways to go ourselves before we start passing judgement on how another society/culture/religion acts/does within their own...

And even though Western culture considers these acts 'barbarious' now and have a more 'modern' approach to sexuality, that still doesn't stop from girls being obstricized from a family/community because they participated in pre-maritial sex...They may not have a physical death, but the way they are treated by family and congregation results in an emotional/spritual killing for 'being unpure'...

KnightOfSappho 12-18-2007 02:25 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10461)
I'm with Salt...The parents made it through life under these rules and it's not the population of the Muslim countries is suddenly plummeting. These "rules based on religion" might seem extreme, but it's just discipline as far as I'm concerned. They don't have a culture where a dude can walk down the middle of the street in a leather S@M suit while his boyfriend hits him with a whip.

All she really had to do was not screw. She knew to consequences. And they are probably worse if her lie gets found out.

and what of her prospecive husband?

Should he beheld to the same rules?

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 02:33 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho (Post 10465)
and what of her prospecive husband?

Should he beheld to the same rules?

The double standard is still alive and kicking no matter what part of the world you live in.

fxashun 12-18-2007 02:49 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho (Post 10465)
and what of her prospecive husband?

Should he beheld to the same rules?

I'm not defending the actual rules, just the culture that lives under them. I'm glad I don't live there. But they are their rules.

That being said, we DO circumcise our children here in the U.S. for what seems like mostly religious or maybe even cosmetic reasons.

cnredd 12-18-2007 02:49 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10463)
Seems to me, that irregardless of society/culture/religious views, we still have a ways to go ourselves before we start passing judgement on how another society/culture/religion acts/does within their own...

That stagnates progress...

If no one speaks out for fear of being attacked due to their own customs, the no one speaks at all and nothing gets done to treat the worst cases...

Second, location has a lot to do with it...

If some Nigerian tribe is doing female circumcision (and with sharp rocks) in the middle of their own country, their isn't as much outrage...But that situation DRASTICALLY changes if they immigrated to Cleveland and continued that "custom" there...

That's what you're seeing in cases like this one...

Everyday, America bashers and Islam apologists like to complain how "The West" is meddling with the cultures and business of other countries (especially in the Middle east)...They say the West should keep to themselves and stop bringing their societal standards into other parts of the world...

Sadly, they don't say the very same thing when those same countries complaining about the West GO to the West and bring thier culture, which clashes with Western ideals, into that same realm...

It's a double standard...:(

fxashun 12-18-2007 02:51 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10467)
The double standard is still alive and kicking no matter what part of the world you live in.

Do you not know "why" there is a double standard? A "pure" woman would be a much greater prize to a man than someone who has a questionable history..

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 02:57 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10470)
That stagnates progress...

If no one speaks out for fear of being attacked due to their own customs, the no one speaks at all and nothing gets done to treat the worst cases...

Second, location has a lot to do with it...

If some Nigerian tribe is doing female circumcision (and with sharp rocks) in the middle of their own country, their isn't as much outrage...But that situation DRASTICALLY changes if they immigrated to Cleveland and continued that "custom" there...

That's what you're seeing in cases like this one...

Everyday, America bashers and Islam apologists like to complain how "The West" is meddling with the cultures and business of other countries (especially in the Middle east)...They say the West should keep to themselves and stop bringing their societal standards into other parts of the world...

Sadly, they don't say the very same thing when those same countries complaining about the West GO to the West and bring thier culture, which clashes with Western ideals, into that same realm...

It's a double standard...:(

Sounds more to me, like you have an axe to grind, while ignoring your own culture's treatment and double standard about virginity/purety and how socially women are treated who don't follow that standard...

Sure, perhaps in our culture we don't physically kill women that are engaged in pre-maritial sex...But we still stigmatize and hold a different set of standards in how we treat women who participate in it without the sanctions of marriage...

The only difference is, rather then kill the body we kill their rights, spririt, and emotions with how we treat non-virgin women to non-virgin males. And because of that double standard/treatment, we drive those females to drastic actions that result in either their deaths, their unborns deaths, or both...

So even though it's a horse of a different color, it's still a horse no matter how you try to say otherwise...

Secondly...You seem to be confusing where one lives with where one is doing social work in your tirade here...Sure, they may move here and they do have to live with our laws in regards to 'honor killing'...Which is illegal by our standards.

Obviously, there needs to be a balance made in regards to what can be done here in our own country...But even then, that doesn't stop them from not feeling the way they do, even if legally they aren't allowed to do so...Just means they know that if they follow their customs in regards to 'honor killing' that here they will pay for doing so legally...

You're thinking of total cultural snuffing of people entering this country...And that's wishful thinking on anyone's part...Just like if you were to move to their countries, even though you'd have to conform to their laws, you still wouldn't completely let go of your own cultural influences and beliefs nor would you be comfortable with your offspring adopting that country's cultural influences and would do your best to keep your culture their main influence...

And that's the situation here, in the topic you posted. Location doesn't stop one's beliefs from not being expressed or followed, even if the location they are in disagree with it.

fxashun 12-18-2007 03:01 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
You can look at it a few ways...
From a "choice" standpoint a woman should be able to drop kids like puppies. It's her body....

But from a standpoint of making sure kids have a decent life and real support...A single mother should have a stigma attached to it. Life is hard enough with two parents, but a single woman who gets knocked up should be frowned upon. Lest you end up with abortion, adoption, poverty, and high taxes on those that actually pay them.

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 03:08 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10471)
Do you not know "why" there is a double standard? A "pure" woman would be a much greater prize to a man than someone who has a questionable history..

A 'pure' man would be a greater prize to a woman then someone who has a questionable history...

See how that works?

I follow the saying...What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

fxashun 12-18-2007 03:14 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10475)
A 'pure' man would be a greater prize to a woman then someone who has a questionable history...

See how that works?

I follow the saying...What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

No I don't see how that works. Considering the mechanics of sex, it's easy to see why the receptive partner in intercourse would have the onus of purity. Not to mention that a man's offspring also come from "there". A woman's "purity" can also be physically "validated". Hence this lady having surgery.

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 03:16 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10474)
You can look at it a few ways...
From a "choice" standpoint a woman should be able to drop kids like puppies. It's her body....

But from a standpoint of making sure kids have a decent life and real support...A single mother should have a stigma attached to it. Life is hard enough with two parents, but a single woman who gets knocked up should be frowned upon. Lest you end up with abortion, adoption, poverty, and high taxes on those that actually pay them.

A man can impregenate more women in the 9 months it takes for a woman to have a baby, then a woman can 'drop kids like puppies' in her lifetime.

And thing is, the man who is permiscous and sleeping with several women rarely if ever takes responsibility of the kids he's possibly creating or has created in such a manner...

He's the one with the sperm...So he's just as responsible for keeping it in his pants, if not more so, then the woman.

But society gives men a free pass to be irresponsible while ostrisizing the woman for the man's actions...Double standard and pathetic. Especially in light that we're supposed to be a 'civilized' society that says women are to be treated equally to men in regards to such matters...

fxashun 12-18-2007 03:19 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10477)
A man can impregenate more women in the 9 months it takes for a woman to have a baby, then a woman can 'drop kids like puppies' in her lifetime.

And thing is, the man who is permiscous and sleeping with several women rarely if ever takes responsibility of the kids he's possibly creating or has created in such a manner...

He's the one with the sperm...So he's just as responsible for keeping it in his pants, if not more so, then the woman.

But society gives men a free pass to be irresponsible while ostrisizing the woman for the man's actions...Double standard and pathetic. Especially in light that we're supposed to be a 'civilized' society that says women are to be treated equally to men in regards to such matters...

And now you have answered your own question of why there is a double standard. Thanks.

Women have the onus to decide what to do with the pregnancy...period. Be it abortion, adoption, keeping it or whatever. You wanna talk about a double standard? There are NO easy options. But you would think that women would place the most important one, "who" they let deposit their sperm inside her, at a VERY high standard. Unfortunately many don't.....

Biology doesn't treat women equally. And the reproductive responsibility isn't distributed equally either.

If a woman wants to be a sperm receptacle, that's on her. But for many men, that's about all she is for that night(or 3 minutes). The ramifications are much more severe for the female. And no amount of social engineering is gonna rectify it.

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 03:28 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10478)
And now you have answered your own question of why there is a double standard. Thanks.

Women have the onus to decide what to do with the pregnancy...period. Be it abortion, adoption, keeping it or whatever. You wanna talk about a double standard? There are NO easy options. But you would think that womoen would place the most important one, "who" they let deposit their sperm inside her, at a VERY high standard. Unfortunately many don't.....

Biology doesn't treat women equally. And the reproductive responsibility isn't distributed equally either.

Where's the double standard? Any of those choices, it's solely the woman who gets blamed and treated poorly by society...

While the man, irregardless of what the woman chooses to do, gets clapped on the back for 'being a man's man', and can easily evade having any responsibility or punishment...

Heck, the man can be the one to push for the abortion and society doesn't think twice about it...But if the woman goes through with it, society calls her the killer...If she doesn't go through with it, she's trying to 'trap the man into a relationship' or 'is doing it cause she's money hungry and wants child support' from the man...

The man is treated as the victim throughout the whole thing and given hero worship. While the woman is the one treated like dirt and is blamed for the man's actions?

Men have the freedom to create as many babies as they want to with as many women as they wish and society clapping them on the back for being 'studly'...But the woman is 'the irresponsible one' in the way society reacts and treats her no matter which decision she makes that's best for her...

fxashun 12-18-2007 03:41 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10480)
Where's the double standard? Any of those choices, it's solely the woman who gets blamed and treated poorly by society...


Do you know what you just said? You just gave the double standard.....

While the man, irregardless of what the woman chooses to do, gets clapped on the back for 'being a man's man', and can easily evade having any responsibility or punishment...

What punishment should there be? You can't punish having sex can you? A man has no responsibility since his physical contribution stops right at the orgasm. Again, the woman is screwed...literally and figuratively.

Heck, the man can be the one to push for the abortion and society doesn't think twice about it...But if the woman goes through with it, society calls her the killer...If she doesn't go through with it, she's trying to 'trap the man into a relationship' or 'is doing it cause she's money hungry and wants child support' from the man...

And again, you have shown why the woman should really make sure she knows the man who she is sleeping with. It's easy to bitch about a problem, but solving them is the part that might actually hurt. And most of the men that drop kids all over town aren't worried about monetary "punishment" and you can't jail a guy for a bunch of women letting him "tap dat ass".


The man is treated as the victim throughout the whole thing and given hero worship. While the woman is the one treated like dirt and is blamed for the man's actions?

Unless she was raped, it was both of their actions. And unless she's an idiot and didn't know the ramifications, the woman IS more guilty than the man. Again, the biology is simple.

Men have the freedom to create as many babies as they want to with as many women as they wish and society clapping them on the back for being 'studly'...But the woman is 'the irresponsible one' in the way society reacts and treats her...

Nearly every living thing on the planet works like that. From plants up. The males try their best to spread the seed and the females are supposed to have a process that weeds out the weaker genetic material. Human females seem to gravititate to the losers fro some reason. Who is more irresponsible? The woman who sleeps with a man who has no intention of taking care of her or her possible offspring, or the man who just wants a nice warm place to store his penis for a few minutes but has no real care about anything beyond that?

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 03:47 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Here's the whole thing of 'virgin/chastity' of the female...

It has more to do with the man's ego, rather then anything to do with whether or not children born after the marriage is his. In fact, the idea of a virgin bride, does not guarentee in the least that she will remain chaste/pure or that children born afterwards is the husband's...

The fact is and remains to this day, that the idea of a virgin bride is to give the man the first taste of 'virgin soil'...For his ego to be made more sure, by being the first one to 'conquer a land that no man has been to' and the bride's virginity is his 'prize of conquering'.

And that is why, even in today's Western culture, that men are rewarded for sexual conquests and women are punished for being 'the conquered'...And the reason for the term 'War of the Sexes'...Because men want and expect to be the victors while women remain the 'prizes'. It's also why society rewards the man for being premiscious while punishing the woman for doing so herself.

KnightOfSappho 12-18-2007 03:49 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10469)
I'm not defending the actual rules, just the culture that lives under them. I'm glad I don't live there. But they are their rules.

That being said, we DO circumcise our children here in the U.S. for what seems like mostly religious or maybe even cosmetic reasons.

actually the percentage of boys that are circumsised at birth has dropped below 50% if I remember correctly. Things are changing.

That said..

She, clearly, does not have the same rules, but was threatened with death if she did not comply. This threat has existed in many cultures INCLUDING the Abrahamic ones.

Hymenoplasty was the solution that she chose. Another may choose to escape. Social and cultural changes often start at these points.

cnredd 12-18-2007 04:00 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
Sounds more to me, like you have an axe to grind, while ignoring your own culture's treatment and double standard about virginity/purety and how socially women are treated who don't follow that standard...

Ummmmmmm...NO...

First, go watch Sex & the City or Amazing Grace, then read up on Paris Hilton, then report the annual porn sales, and then come back and say that sentence with a straight face...

Second, there is no social scarlet letter in our culture that requires DEATH...and by their own family...

To equate anything in our culture is moral equivalence in the highest order...:mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
Sure, perhaps in our culture we don't physically kill women that are engaged in pre-maritial sex...But we still stigmatize and hold a different set of standards in how we treat women who participate in it without the sanctions of marriage...

:rofl2

Go read some hip-hop lyrics...You know...The #1 hits...not just the underground stuff...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
The only difference is, rather then kill the body we kill their rights, spririt, and emotions with how we treat non-virgin women to non-virgin males. And because of that double standard/treatment, we drive those females to drastic actions that result in either their deaths, their unborns deaths, or both...

No...They get pushed to the front page of the tabloids and given reality shows...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
So even though it's a horse of a different color, it's still a horse no matter how you try to say otherwise...

America is a pygmy horse when it comes to this...Equating it to the Clydesdale of Islamic culture is beneath contempt...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
Secondly...You seem to be confusing where one lives with where one is doing social work in your tirade here...Sure, they may move here and they do have to live with our laws in regards to 'honor killing'...Which is illegal by our standards.

NOW it is...But look at what's happening in Western civilizations...

Britain is considering(!!!!!!!) and in discussions with Muslim leaders about creating Sharia courts for certain Muslim neighborhoods...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
Obviously, there needs to be a balance made in regards to what can be done here in our own country...But even then, that doesn't stop them from not feeling the way they do, even if legally they aren't allowed to do so...Just means they know that if they follow their customs in regards to 'honor killing' that here they will pay for doing so legally...

Once again...That's NOW...But the Sharia Creep is coming...You and I won't see it, but I pray for our grandchildren...:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
You're thinking of total cultural snuffing of people entering this country...And that's wishful thinking on anyone's part...

Really?...I don't remember saying that...Oh yeah...

I didn't...

But Teddy Roosevelt did say this...

Quote:

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Sounds like you don't agree...:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10473)
Just like if you were to move to their countries, even though you'd have to conform to their laws, you still wouldn't completely let go of your own cultural influences and beliefs nor would you be comfortable with your offspring adopting that country's cultural influences and would do your best to keep your culture their main influence...

I didn't say a DAMN thing about letting go of anything!!...The issue is PUSHING your culture on the natives...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer
And that's the situation here, in the topic you posted. Location doesn't stop one's beliefs from not being expressed or followed, even if the location they are in disagree with it.

Having a difference of opinion is one thing...But ACTING OUT on that difference as if the native customs don't even exist is quite another...

You don't believe in "When in Rome, do what the romans do." and neither does Islam...

For them (and by your words), it's now become, "When in Rome, screw what the Romans do...Do your own thing and tell the Romans they can go scratch."...:mad:

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 04:30 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10486)
Ummmmmmm...NO...

First, go watch Sex & the City or Amazing Grace, then read up on Paris Hilton, then report the annual porn sales, and then come back and say that sentence with a straight face...

??? Just your mentioning those, shows the double standard...Unless you're trying to say that suddenly our society doesn't make fun of or look down on those examples?

You seem to be confusing the fact that although it's not illegal for those shows, actress, or even the porn industry to exsist/live in our society with the actual fact that general society itself still says that 'porn', Paris H., or even S&S/AG are 'immoral and brings our society down'...

So yes, I can still say what I said with a straight face cause I'm talking about how something is stigmatized in society...Not whether or not it's allowed legally to exsist.

Women are allowed to be primiscous in our society...BUT it's in HOW SOCIETY TREATS THEM, I'm discussing.

Porn is perfectly acceptable in our society, with limitation in regards to age viewership...But that doesn't mean that porn stars are looked at by the general public as 'moral' or 'trustworthy'....

Paris Hilton is a celebrity, sure. BUT, although she's popular entertainment, society in general considers her immoral and a 'sl*t'.

Sex and the City/Amazing Grace are considered entertainment...Yet there's still a good part of society that sees it as unfit and immoral entertainment that entices viewers to act immorally...And they treat the show as 'immoral and sinful' to watch...

And the same applies in regards to what I was talking about...Women are allowed to make their own sexual choices. They are allowed to be as permiscious as a man, in regards to who they sleep with and whether or not it's done without the confinces/santicty of marriage...But if they do so, then they have 'consequences' they have to suffer by society. They have to live with the labels attached to them by society, for not being chaste/virginal.

We still treat women differently if they are 'loose with their sexuality' then we do men. Our society condones the emotional and mental mistreatment/classification of women who don't act in a 'chaste/virginal manner outside of marriage. And this type of treatment, as I said prior, drives some women to great extremes to try and fit into what's 'socially acceptable'...Some by abortion, or outright killing of their new born to cover up their shame...And in some cases, even more extreme measures such as suicide, because they feel socially/emotionally stigmatized by their family/friends/communities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10486)
Second, there is no social scarlet letter in our culture that requires DEATH...and by their own family...

Please point to where I said that in our society, we require death of a non-virgin female? I'm sure I made myself clear on the fact that we don't kill women who have premaritial sex...

Yep, just re-read what I wrote...And TWICE I stated that 'we may not kill women who are primiscous but....' Why don't you go back and re-read what I wrote, so you won't try to interject something I made perfectly clear I wasn't saying in the first place?

But there IS a social 'scarlet letter' attached to women that aren't sexually chaste. Where our society puts a heavy emotional burden on women who allow themselves the freedom to express themselves sexually, just like men are allowed to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10486)
I didn't say a DAMN thing about letting go of anything!!...The issue is PUSHING your culture on the natives...

And how are they 'pushing their culture on the natives'? Who outside of thier own culture, is being forced to comply to their traditions or commit 'honor killings' in the name of thier belief or culture?

You? Me? Thier Christian nieghbor across the street?

What your article is discussing is what a culture is doing within their own culture...Not outside of it or to anyone that isn't of their practices...That girl is from THAT CULTURE, irregardless of the fact she's been born in the US. IF she wasn't of that culture, or held to it's beliefs, then she wouldn't have been concerned about what her people would do to her for breaking her culture's traditions...

She's not Christian...She's Islamic herself. And she's MULTI-cultural in heritage, not 'Western' or 'MiddleEastern'. She's actually both. Hence again, her concern and reasons for doing what she's done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10486)
Having a difference of opinion is one thing...But ACTING OUT on that difference as if the native customs don't even exist is quite another...

Yet, here you are upset about HER NATIVE customs not fitting into YOUR NATIVE customs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10486)
You don't believe in "When in Rome, do what the romans do." and neither does Islam...For them (and by your words), it's now become, "When in Rome, screw what the Romans do...Do your own thing and tell the Romans they can go scratch."...:mad:

Here's the thing I LOVE about that quote...Rome was multi-religious. In otherwords, because of their world conquests of other nations, Rome itself adopted multiple faiths and allowed for the practice of those multiple faiths...All in the name of 'All beliefs are Roman beliefs'...

They didn't just have temples raised to honor the Roman/Greek gods/goddesses...But also had temples and statues of non-Roman gods/goddesses to honor the many nations and beliefs they ruled over residing right next to thier gods/goddesses....

So your useage of 'When in Rome, do as the Roman's do' is an inaccurate useage dear....Because IF you had been in Rome, then you would have been free to worship and practice as you wanted as long as your beliefs didn't try to overshadow the Roman gods/goddesses...In otherwords, as long as yours didn't say 'my way is the only way'...

Yes, I know they prosecuted the Christians...But it wasn't the religion itself they had problems with...It was the dessention the followers caused of insisting 'only one god could be worshipped' they had issue with in the beginning. Because they were a city of MANY beliefs, and all were held to be true and Christianity caused conflict in that.

cnredd 12-18-2007 05:18 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
??? Just your mentioning those, shows the double standard...Unless you're trying to say that suddenly our society doesn't make fun of or look down on those examples?

No they don't...

They are put up on pedestals...Remember the Murphy Brown scenario with Dan Quayle?...Quayle was the one who was vilified...:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
You seem to be confusing the fact that although it's not illegal for those shows, actress, or even the porn industry to exsist/live in our society with the actual fact that general society itself still says that 'porn', Paris H., or even S&S/AG are 'immoral and brings our society down'...

Correct...

But unlike the scenario in the original post, the culture is not TAKING MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS and closing these places down...They speak out against these things or try to sway legislation, but they DON'T say "Screw it...I'm just gonna rip up that whore's contract." or "I'm gonna cut TBS's cables so they can't show programs that I find demeaning."...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
So yes, I can still say what I said with a straight face cause I'm talking about how something is stigmatized in society...Not whether or not it's allowed legally to exsist.

But you are EQUATING THEM!!!...

That's moral equivalance, and is the most detrimental logic that this country faces today...

Quote:

Originally Posted by moral equivalance
Hitler killed people; cops killed people; therefore cops are as bad as Hitler

Bull**** logic...:mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Women are allowed to be primiscous in our society...BUT it's in HOW SOCIETY TREATS THEM, I'm discussing.

Gives them raises and puts them in rap videos...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Porn is perfectly acceptable in our society, with limitation in regards to age viewership...But that doesn't mean that porn stars are looked at by the general public as 'moral' or 'trustworthy'....

Once again..."Looking at" and "taking active and violent action against them" are two different things...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Paris Hilton is a celebrity, sure. BUT, although she's popular entertainment, society in general considers her immoral and a 'sl*t'.

And then when asked "Would you bang her?", the answer of "Yes" becomes the battlecry...

In case you didn't know, she was #11 on last year's Maxim Top 100 list...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Sex and the City/Amazing Grace are considered entertainment...Yet there's still a good part of society that sees it as unfit and immoral entertainment that entices viewers to act immorally...And they treat the show as 'immoral and sinful' to watch...

And how does that "good part of society" subvert the law or retain stagnant traditions in order to stop these programs?...

They don't...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Please point to where I said that in our society, we require death of a non-virgin female? I'm sure I made myself clear on the fact that we don't kill women who have premaritial sex...

Yep, just re-read what I wrote...And TWICE I stated that 'we may not kill women who are primiscous but....' Why don't you go back and re-read what I wrote, so you won't try to interject something I made perfectly clear I wasn't saying in the first place?

As I stated earlier you're EQUATING America's treatment of non-virgins (no violence...just thoughts) with the treatment of non-virgins practicing fundamental Islam (DEATH)...

To do that is shameful to humanity...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
But there IS a social 'scarlet letter' attached to women that aren't sexually chaste. Where our society puts a heavy emotional burden on women who allow themselves the freedom to express themselves sexually, just like men are allowed to do.

Oh please...

This these shirts don't sell?...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
And how are they 'pushing their culture on the natives'? Who outside of thier own culture, is being forced to comply to their traditions or commit 'honor killings' in the name of thier belief or culture?

You? Me? Thier Christian nieghbor across the street?

Forced?...Not right now...But Sharia Creep will eventually make it acceptable...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
What your article is discussing is what a culture is doing within their own culture...Not outside of it or to anyone that isn't of their practices...That girl is from THAT CULTURE, irregardless of the fact she's been born in the US. IF she wasn't of that culture, or held to it's beliefs, then she wouldn't have been concerned about what her people would do to her for breaking her culture's traditions...

Yeah...The hell with humanity...If a culture kills their own people, who are we to disturb them?...:rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
She's not Christian...She's Islamic herself. And she's MULTI-cultural in heritage, not 'Western' or 'MiddleEastern'. She's actually both. Hence again, her concern and reasons for doing what she's done.

her "concerns are stagnant and incosistant with the modern world...I advise her and her religion to catch up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10492)
Yet, here you are upset about HER NATIVE customs not fitting into YOUR NATIVE customs.

Oh that big NATIVE CUSTOM I have about not killing virgins is a real thorn in the thumb...:rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer
Here's the thing I LOVE about that quote...Rome was multi-religious. In otherwords, because of their world conquests of other nations, Rome itself adopted multiple faiths and allowed for the practice of those multiple faiths...All in the name of 'All beliefs are Roman beliefs'...

They didn't just have temples raised to honor the Roman/Greek gods/goddesses...But also had temples and statues of non-Roman gods/goddesses to honor the many nations and beliefs they ruled over residing right next to thier gods/goddesses....

So your useage of 'When in Rome, do as the Roman's do' is an inaccurate useage dear....Because IF you had been in Rome, then you would have been free to worship and practice as you wanted as long as your beliefs didn't try to overshadow the Roman gods/goddesses...In otherwords, as long as yours didn't say 'my way is the only way'...

Yes, I know they prosecuted the Christians...But it wasn't the religion itself they had problems with...It was the dessention the followers caused of insisting 'only one god could be worshipped' they had issue with in the beginning. Because they were a city of MANY beliefs, and all were held to be true and Christianity caused conflict in that.

And you totally sidestepped the MEANING of the term and just went on a historical rant...

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 05:49 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
No they don't...

They are put up on pedestals...Remember the Murphy Brown scenario with Dan Quayle?...Quayle was the one who was vilified...:(

Correct...

But unlike the scenario in the original post, the culture is not TAKING MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS and closing these places down...They speak out against these things or try to sway legislation, but they DON'T say "Screw it...I'm just gonna rip up that whore's contract." or "I'm gonna cut TBS's cables so they can't show programs that I find demeaning."...

But you are EQUATING THEM!!!...

ROTFLMAOL!!! I got as far as reading this part of your post Redd, and had to stop cause I was laughing so hard about the world of denial you're living in...

Cause know what's crossing my mind right now? Abortion clinics. Of people picketing those places, that are religious and pro-life...Of their physically attacking the women going into such places, or shouting insults and slurs at those women as a means to intimidate and abuse those women in the name of their religious beliefs...And let's not forget either, the actual bombings/shootings done by religious fanatics in those places either...

So yes...I'm equating them, cause they're cut from the same cloth and applying a strict and ridged control over women they feel are 'stepping outside of the norm of social acceptance'....

I could also go as far as mentioning picketing lines at cinamas and courthouses all over the nation, of religious zealots screaming as loud as possible of how 'sins and lack of morality' is being shown on the screen...And pull up stories about the fights breaking out at such showings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
That's moral equivalance, and is the most detrimental logic that this country faces today...

And with that little sentence, you proved my point...Cause there's people that say that, then take it one step further with little difficulty...And those on the side that those individuals are against? They suffer for it...Whether it's emotional, mental, or physical loss/death...It happens and is done by individuals with mindsets similar to what you just said in that simple statement...


Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
Bull**** logic...:mad:

I agree...Your logic is full of bull hockey Redd....

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
Once again..."Looking at" and "taking active and violent action against them" are two different things...

Yet, despite your protests to the contrary...There are those that do take active and violent action against them...And the people who find themselves in situations that society deems 'unmoral/wrong', also have a tendency to act violently towards themselves to make 'restitution'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
And then when asked "Would you bang her?", the answer of "Yes" becomes the battlecry...

In case you didn't know, she was #11 on last year's Maxim Top 100 list...

LOL!!! Having sex with someone doesn't equate to respecting or thinking highly of them Redd...So why this straw argument from you, trying to claim otherwise?

Popularity also doesn't mean they're liked...If anything, Paris Hilton is a celebrity because people like seeing her fall or make a fool of herself...That again, in no way means they like her or respect her...But that she is solely a celebrity for the entertainment value alone...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
And how does that "good part of society" subvert the law or retain stagnant traditions in order to stop these programs?...

They don't...

First of all...it would have to be defined, exactly what is 'that good part of the society'...And what's good for one person, isn't nessesarily good for another let alone talking about cultures and societies. 'Another man's treasure is another man's junk'...And in our society, we actually are a society that treasures junk, in the eyes of alot of the world...What some of us might deem as 'good' about our society, others see as a disease...And vice-versa.

Heck, even within our own society we're divided on what's 'good/right' and 'bad/wrong'...

I could say the same thing about SSM...Cause in the Western society, we're the minority still holding out that it's 'a bad part of society' to initiate, while our other Western cousins say 'it's a good part of society' to be inclusive...

Like I said...Different color of horse, but it's still the same horse. And here's the thing...These acts that we both are describing are done by fanaticals of any religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
As I stated earlier you're EQUATING America's treatment of non-virgins (no violence...just thoughts) with the treatment of non-virgins practicing fundamental Islam (DEATH)...

To do that is shameful to humanity...

Thoughts that sometimes encourage another to take their own life of that of another person...You'r focusing on WHO is doing the killing...Period. And from your responses, I'm also seeing that most of your attitude is fueled by lack of knowlege about Islam itself, as well as fed by your own personal predjudices/hatred of Islamics...

AND that you aren't basing your 'proof' off of nothing more then fanatical Islamics at that...Again with that 'judging the whole by the actions of the few' that is so viewable in the majority of your responses regarding issues or cultures you simply don't like or understand...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)

Ohhhh...And look...One of those labels I was talking about that gets attached to females who are sexually 'immoral' in society's opinion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
Forced?...Not right now...But Sharia Creep will eventually make it acceptable...

Yeah...The hell with humanity...If a culture kills their own people, who are we to disturb them?...:rolls

her "concerns are stagnant and incosistant with the modern world...I advise her and her religion to catch up...

Oh that big NATIVE CUSTOM I have about not killing virgins is a real thorn in the thumb...:rolls

Well then...I have to say then that the same applies to you where you let your religious preferences interfer in the rights of others...I advise you and your particular brand of religion catch up in regards to the treatment of women who are sexually active outside of marriage, as well as 'give up the ghost' in regards to abortion and same-sex marriage...

Afterall, our civilized fellow Western cultures don't have the same stigma or taboos attached to those issues now and allow their citizens to choose for themselves what makes them happy and live a more productive/healthy life both emotionally and physically....

Or is this a case of 'my way is the only way and anyone that disagrees is damned' type of response I can expect from you on those issues?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10493)
And you totally sidestepped the MEANING of the term and just went on a historical rant...

I didn't side-step anything...I pointed out that the way you wanted it to be taken was wrong, cause you have a misconception of it's meaning...In otherwords Redd...I corrected you...Not side-stepped...

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do" means 'live and let live'...Not 'conform to one belief or opinion' as you thought it ment.

You were wrong in it's interpretation...I corrected that by explaining it to you in great detail.

Idealogically Promiscuous 12-18-2007 06:11 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10476)
No I don't see how that works. Considering the mechanics of sex, it's easy to see why the receptive partner in intercourse would have the onus of purity. Not to mention that a man's offspring also come from "there". A woman's "purity" can also be physically "validated". Hence this lady having surgery.

I understand your point but I take exception to it. I find your logic, though solid in calculation, is lacking in humanity and consideration of equality.

cnredd 12-18-2007 06:34 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
I'll start keeping the rebuttals smaller...These 3000 word posts are killing me...:crazy

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
ROTFLMAOL!!! I got as far as reading this part of your post Redd, and had to stop cause I was laughing so hard about the world of denial you're living in...

Cause know what's crossing my mind right now? Abortion clinics? Of people picketing those places, that are religious and pro-life...Of their physically attacking the women going into such places, or shouting insults and slurs at those women...And let's not forget either, the actual bombings/shootings done by religious fanatics in those places either...

Here's where you run into the problem...

The people that blow up abortion clinics or do violence to others because of their beliefs are NOT honored by the majority of their own...let alone others...

That's not true of Islamic practices such as this one...They are not only NOT frowned upon, but accepted as a way of culture...

To equate the two is nothing more than moral equivalance...again...

"10000 women are killed by honor killings and the state looks away...5 people are killed by abortion bombers and the state vigorously indicts and convicts them...I think we should be fearful of both on the same level."...:rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
So yes...I'm equating them, cause they're cut from the same cloth and applying a strict and ridged control over women they feel are 'stepping outside of the norm of social acceptance'....

Only from an ideological standpoint...from the ACTIONS TAKEN upon their ideology, the difference is overwhelmigly clear...

If you don't understand the difference between "I hate Jews" and "I hate Jews, so I'm going to shoot one of them tonight.", then I don't think I can continue this conversation...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
I could also go as far as mentioning picketing lines at cinamas and courthouses all over the nation, of religious zealots screaming as loud as possible of how 'sins and lack of morality' is being shown on the screen

Ahhh...taking away the right to protest I see...

Smart move...you don't want those non-fascists hanging around all disagreeing and stuff...:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
...And pull up stories about the fights breaking out at such showings?

That's not a religious result...That's a result of humanity...You couldn't name a issue groups protest where a fight DIDN'T break out at some point...To hold them to a higher standard (especially not mentioning if they were defending themselves) is pretty "ivory towerish"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
And with that little sentence, you proved my point...Cause there's people that say that, then take it one step further with little difficulty...

The quantity comes into play...

If 40 people are doing something wrong in a group of 100, it's a crisis...when 2 are doing it, it's simply NOT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
And those on the side that those individuals are against? They suffer for it...Whether it's emotional, mental, or physical loss/death...It happens and is done by individuals with mindsets similar to what you just said in that simple statement...

But you're not looking at the reactions of the society...You can't name me ONE instance of a religious person creating violent acts in America and isn't comdemned overwhelmingly...

Meanwhile, for your consumption...

Quote:

Up to 1.3 percent of Indonesian Muslims nationwide admit using violence against people or objects they consider contradictory to their beliefs, a survey found, with more than 40 percent ready to wage war for their faith.
Now consider this...

There are 200 Muslims in Indonesia...1.3% ADMITTED to using violence already (That's 2.6 MILLION people of the population calculated out)...

40% are willing to "wage war" fo their faith...That's 80 million people, AP...More than TWICE the amount of the "Religious Right" in America...and that would be if 100% of the "Religious Right" answered the same way...which you damn well know they wouldn't...

BTW - That's JUST Indonesia...Add up the number in all Islamic countries and you got over a COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILLION Muslims willing to wage war for
"faith" and "perceived insults to Islam"...

If that doesn't make you day "WTF?", then you'll be more surprised than I when they get a hold of nuclear weapons and actually use them...:(


Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
et, despite your protests to the contrary...There are those that do take active and violent action against them...And the people who find themselves in situations that society deems 'unmoral/wrong', also have a tendency to act violently towards themselves to make 'restitution'...

And they are dealt with...Unlike Sharia courts where it's accepted...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
LOL!!! Having sex with someone doesn't equate to respecting or thinking highly of them Redd...So why this straw argument from you, trying to claim otherwise?

Not respecting" and "Not respecting so I'll commit acts of violence against them"...D.i.f.f.e.r.e.n.c.e...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
Popularity also doesn't mean they're liked...If anything, Paris Hilton is a celebrity because people like seeing her fall or make a fool of herself...That again, in no way means they like her or respect her...But that she is solely a celebrity for the entertainment value alone...

And people feed off of that foolishness...Society gives magazines and TV studios the money for them to pay people like Paris Hilton...To claim they aren't an accomplice to the public acceptance and really believe the opposite is foolish in and of itself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
First of all...it would have to be defined, exactly what is 'that good part of the society'...And what's good for one person, isn't nessesarily good for another let alone talking about cultures and societies. 'Another man's treasure is another man's junk'...And in our society, we actually are a society that treasures junk, in the eyes of alot of the world...What some of us might deem as 'good' about our society, others see as a disease...And vice-versa.

Heck, even within our own society we're divided on what's 'good/right' and 'bad/wrong'...

LEVELS of right/wrong...jaywalking ain't the same as serial murder...Although you'll morally equate them as both being "criminals"...:rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
I could say the same thing about SSM...Cause in the Western society, we're the minority still holding out that it's 'a bad part of society' to initiate, while our other Western cousins say 'it's a good part of society' to be inclusive...

Like I said...Different color of horse, but it's still the same horse.

Thoughts that sometimes encourage another to take their own life of that of another person...You'r focusing on WHO is doing the killing...Period.


Ohhhh...And look...One of those labels I was talking about that gets attached to females who are sexually 'immoral' in society's opinion...

Well then...I have to say then that the same applies to you where you let your religious preferences interfer in the rights of others...I advise you and your particular brand of religion catch up in regards to the treatment of women who are sexually active outside of marriage, as well as 'give up the ghost' in regards to abortion and same-sex marriage...

That cool...anything you disagrre with, you can just call it a "ghost" and mock another's stnce on things like destroying life or tradition values...

How "gouche"...I suggest putting on a black beret and sunglasses and head on down to the club to do poetry...:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
Afterall, our civilized fellow Western cultures don't have the same stigma or taboos attached to those issues and allow their citizens to choose for themselves what makes them happy and live a more productive/healthy life both emotionally and physically....

Or is this a case of 'my way is the only way and anyone that disagrees is damned' type of response I can expect from you on those issues?

But the "my way" is society's choice to make, not individuals that immigrated from elsewhere...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer (Post 10495)
I didn't side-step anything...I pointed out that the way you wanted it to be taken was wrong, cause you have a misconception of it's meaning...In otherwords Redd...I corrected you...Not side-stepped...

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do" means 'live and let live'...Not 'conform to one belief or opinion' as you thought it ment.

You were wrong in it's interpretation...I corrected that by explaining it to you in great detail.

WHAT?!?!?!?!!?....Live and let live?!?!?!...:rofl2

How simple can this be?...

Quote:

The phrase "When in Rome" is an abbreviation of the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" which is used to advise people to adapt to the culture of places that they visit.
That's a FAR cry from "Live and Let Live"...:crazy

cnredd 12-18-2007 06:35 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
And I failed in that "smaller rebuttals" thing...:(

fxashun 12-18-2007 06:43 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10504)
And I failed in that "smaller rebuttals" thing...:(

But it was a good one.

fxashun 12-18-2007 06:45 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous (Post 10500)
I understand your point but I take exception to it. I find your logic, though solid in calculation, is lacking in humanity and consideration of equality.

Be prepared for more of the same. Logic and humanity sometime oppose each other. And I usually side with logic.

How should I think differently about this issue? And "why" since this isn't our culture to change in the first place. I was just stating "why" I think that culture might place such a huge priority on chastity.

Idealogically Promiscuous 12-18-2007 06:50 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10507)
Be prepared for more of the same. Logic and humanity sometime oppose each other. And I usually side with logic.

How should I think differently about this issue? And "why" since this isn't our culture to change in the first place. I was just stating "why" I think that culture might place such a huge priority on chastity.

I am in agreement that it is not our culture and so it is none of our business. I would like to say that despite this, when Muslims move into our culture, it is of great importance that they understand that we do not permit women to be treated in such a manner here and that any criminal offense, whether it is cultural or not, will be met with criminal penalty.

fxashun 12-18-2007 06:54 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous (Post 10509)
I am in agreement that it is not our culture and so it is none of our business. I would like to say that despite this, when Muslims move into our culture, it is of great importance that they understand that we do not permit women to be treated in such a manner here and that any criminal offense, whether it is cultural or not, will be met with criminal penalty.

I totally agree with you. I know you might not like that. But that just the way it is. So there. :eek

We've had a slight problem with immigrants snatching up their 14 year old girlfriends and running back to Mexico when the police found out about them....Can't have 14 year old girlfriends in Ga....any more. LOL

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 07:05 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
Meanwhile, for your consumption...

Now consider this...

There are 200 Muslims in Indonesia...1.3% ADMITTED to using violence already (That's 2.6 MILLION people of the population calculated out)...

40% are willing to "wage war" fo their faith...That's 80 million people, AP...More than TWICE the amount of the "Religious Right" in America...and that would be if 100% of the "Religious Right" answered the same way...which you damn well know they wouldn't...

Funny, but that's not the tally I got, or how I understood what I was reading...Only 1200 were polled, and of that, only 1.3 % admitted to having committed violence in the name of Islam...

And of those TALLIED and who had confessed to having committed violent acts in the name of their beliefs (that 1.3 %), would be willing to go to war...Not 40% of the total number of Islamics in Indonesia, but 40.3% of 1.3% admitting to violent acts, were willing to go to war...

By the way...the 40% you said would go to war? Wrong...That's the percentage of those polled who said that they would harm someone that blasphemed against Islam...And again, that's from that 1.3% group out of the whole poll, not out of all those polled...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
BTW - That's JUST Indonesia...Add up the number in all Islamic countries and you got over a COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILLION Muslims willing to wage war for
"faith" and "perceived insults to Islam"...

And yet, that doesn't in no way speak for all Muslims, nor is a real poll of even Idonesian Muslims...

That's the problems with polls...They're inaccurate at best and very subject to interpretation and innuendo...But hey...Since it fits your mindset you really don't care whether it's truthful or not, as long as it supports your own perceptions, right? LOL! Especially if those presenting the 'poll' and it's commentary support that same outlook too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
If that doesn't make you day "WTF?", then you'll be more surprised than I when they get a hold of nuclear weapons and actually use them...:(

Right now, we have more real threats of nuclear war being started in Asia, not in the Middle East darling...Because it's our Asian counterparts who actually have made and tested nuclear weapons this year...And deffinately are using that threat towards ourselves and their neighboring countries they've been in conflict with over the centuries...


Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
That cool...anything you disagrre with, you can just call it a "ghost" and mock another's stnce on things like destroying life or tradition values...

How "gouche"...I suggest putting on a black beret and sunglasses and head on down to the club to do poetry...:D

ROTFLMAOL!!! Look how quickly you jump positions there Redd...I use your own logic towards you, and suddenly 'no, that's not ok and you're destroying life/traditional values'...

Like I said...Your whole argument is 'do as I say, not as I do'...You're willing to sit in judgement on others, judge them by your standards...But you aren't willing to be judged in the same manner as well as expect not to conform yourself...

Can we say 'hypocritical'? Cause that's what that argument is...Hypocrisy at it's best. And a whole lot of denial on top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
But the "my way" is society's choice to make, not individuals that immigrated from elsewhere...

Unless you're pure American Indian darling...You are an immigrant or from immigrant roots. So if we are going to go the route you're suggesting now? Then darling? You need to start realizing that our nation is a melting pot of many cultures, nationalities, and practices. That there is no one culture, no one nationality represented, and no one belief/practice held above any other...

When in Rome, do as Romans do...Live and let live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd (Post 10503)
WHAT?!?!?!?!!?....Live and let live?!?!?!...:rofl2

How simple can this be?...

That's a FAR cry from "Live and Let Live"...:crazy

I didn't stutter darling...But you do seem a tad hard of 'reading'...I say that, cause one can't 'hear' what's read. ;)

I explained in great detail, the 'culture' of Rome...Which was a culture of many cultures giving nor pressing one particular belief over another,giving all beliefs equal time...And they expected visitors to respect that. Live and let live...can't get no simplier then that. :D

Here's a little blurb from the Code of Chivalry I like...It's the same thing pretty much...

Quote:

Though there may be differences between those of the Old Ways, diverse covens and circles may well have diverse views. These views, even if they are different than yours, should always be given respect. When a coven, circle, clan, or grove is visited or joined, one should discern quietly thier practices, and abide thereby.
This isn't saying to give up your own practices or views when visiting or residing in another coven/clan/grove...It's saying to practice your ways privately, without letting them interfer with host's practices. To respect their ways, even participate if it will foster good relations with those different then yourself...To find a balance between respecting their ways as well as maintaining your own.

What gets me about this whole topic, is that there's actually no proof that the girl would have been killed...That it was her fear of 'maybe' that encouraged her to do what she did...And that the writer of the article (as well as the readers of the article) also interjected their own imaginings to the 'what if' without really finding out IF such a thing would have occurred if the girl hadn't had the operation...

LOL! Just my whole take on the topic and in the responses I've read from certain posters about the topic...Interesting to say the least.

Idealogically Promiscuous 12-18-2007 07:30 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10510)
I totally agree with you. I know you might not like that. But that just the way it is. So there. :eek

We've had a slight problem with immigrants snatching up their 14 year old girlfriends and running back to Mexico when the police found out about them....Can't have 14 year old girlfriends in Ga....any more. LOL

I don't mind if you agree with me or I agree with you. By the way, I did want to commend you on playing nicely around here. I told you I would be pleased if you proved me wrong. :thumbsup

AlicornsPrayer 12-18-2007 07:33 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous (Post 10509)
I am in agreement that it is not our culture and so it is none of our business. I would like to say that despite this, when Muslims move into our culture, it is of great importance that they understand that we do not permit women to be treated in such a manner here and that any criminal offense, whether it is cultural or not, will be met with criminal penalty.

Thank you IP...I agree with ya 100% there.

fxashun 12-18-2007 08:01 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous (Post 10512)
I don't mind if you agree with me or I agree with you. By the way, I did want to commend you on playing nicely around here. I told you I would be pleased if you proved me wrong. :thumbsup

I'm still trying to figure out what gave you your impression of me. My "style" is dictated by who I'm debating. I can be an ******* no doubt, but usually I have my reasons. That's why I was asking, so I could give my "motivation" for coming across the way I was.

After reading some of your posts, we agree on many things. Not all mind you, but many.

cnredd 12-18-2007 08:45 PM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous (Post 10512)
I don't mind if you agree with me or I agree with you. By the way, I did want to commend you on playing nicely around here. I told you I would be pleased if you proved me wrong. :thumbsup

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun (Post 10531)
I'm still trying to figure out what gave you your impression of me. My "style" is dictated by who I'm debating. I can be an ******* no doubt, but usually I have my reasons. That's why I was asking, so I could give my "motivation" for coming across the way I was.

After reading some of your posts, we agree on many things. Not all mind you, but many.

I say you go to PMs with this...

No need for displays of personal conversation...

rnali 02-19-2019 06:18 AM

Re: Why one Muslim girl became a born-again virgin for her wedding night
 
IMPORTANT to all men seeking to marry virgin brides,or you are already married and want to know if you were duped by hymenoplasty.

The ONLY guaranteed virginity test is through Extrasensory perception(ESP)/remote viewing/psychic ability.TRUTH cannot be hidden in the conciouse field.This is a natural ability(not sacred gift) which every human being is born with.I advise you to learn it yourself,there`s alot of information online...OR pay someone if you are lazy.

ESP is not bound by time or distance or space...you can see in the past and future.In an era of surgically repaired hymen,anal and oral sex...with ESP you can see even oral sex in the past.Intelligence agencies i.e CIA has been using this for decades,check Russell Turg and the work he did for CIA during Iran hostage situtation and Chinese misile test.

Considering the wave of feminism about banning virginity testing, if you really value purity of your future spouse, all is not lost.


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