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ObamaCare Discuss The Democrats and incrementalism at the General Forum; It seems evident that the Democrats (and liberals in general) consider just how many people are covered by a healthcare ...

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Old 10-17-2017, 02:52 PM
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Default The Democrats and incrementalism

It seems evident that the Democrats (and liberals in general) consider just how many people are covered by a healthcare plan to be the principal measure of its merit. That, for instance, is the chorus against TrumpCare: Why, it just is not as all-inclusive as ObamaCare.

Given that this is the measurement used by Democrats (and other liberals) to determine the merit of any healthcare plan, one wonders just why these people do not do a full-court press for UHC. This would, after all, cover every American.

Are the Democrats just devoted to incrementalism?
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

I have always, well at least since I formally educated myself about healthcare, thought we go directly to a third party payer (government) healthcare system based on science that covers everyone in the country. The demos want the profit as long as possible too. We will get there someday but we will make it as painful as possible and make sure they suck as much profit as possible out of us on the way.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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... we will make it as painful as possible and make sure they suck as much profit as possible out of us on the way.
I don't think you meant to say that, but I believe you anyway.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

Exactly what I meant to say, I am an American too.
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I don't think you meant to say that, but I believe you anyway.
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Old 10-18-2017, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
I have always, well at least since I formally educated myself about healthcare, thought we go directly to a third party payer (government) healthcare system based on science that covers everyone in the country. The demos want the profit as long as possible too. We will get there someday but we will make it as painful as possible and make sure they suck as much profit as possible out of us on the way.
If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

Mindless right wing talking point.
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If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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Mindless right wing talking point.
Why do you say that? Exactly how do you believe 'healthcare for all' would be paid for?
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It seems evident that the Democrats (and liberals in general) consider just how many people are covered by a healthcare plan to be the principal measure of its merit. That, for instance, is the chorus against TrumpCare: Why, it just is not as all-inclusive as ObamaCare.

Given that this is the measurement used by Democrats (and other liberals) to determine the merit of any healthcare plan, one wonders just why these people do not do a full-court press for UHC. This would, after all, cover every American.

Are the Democrats just devoted to incrementalism?
Logic would dictate that a metric of any health care plan would be whether it actually provides health care. If it doesn't provide health care then it can't be called a health care plan. That's only one of many metrics but it's obviously an important metric.

There has always been an element that has advocated Universal Health Care (e.g. a single-payer system) but that hasn't been universally accepted by liberals and has been totally by virtually all conservatives. The liberals that are dedicated to UHC have been making a "full-court press" for that change going back as long as I can remember but they were a relatively small group of liberals.

What we have seen in recent years are that more liberals are joining their ranks but we need to understand that this was never "planned incrementalism" as claimed by many Republicans but instead has been a result of the politics of health care itself. To understand that we need to step back in political history that provides the basis for the increased support for UHC by liberals.

When elected former President Obama was dedicated to bringing unity between the Republicans and Democrats in Congress. As addressed by the documentary "VICE Special Report: A House Divided" the Republicans involved recalled the early days of the Obama Administration.

In addressing the deep recession, where jobs were still being lost and the economy tanking, the Republicans had advocated tax cuts for the wealthy as the means to recover from the financial crisis and opposed any spending measures. The Democrats, in control of both the Senate and the House eventually passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 that was a combination of tax cuts and spending measures that, for most observers, was compromise legislation that covered the Republican tax cuts and the Democrats spending to provide temporary economic stimulus to the economy. The Republicans didn't see this as compromise and instead became angered over the "partisanship" of the Democrats and decided to retaliate.

It was in these very early days that the Republicans decided to do the one thing they knew they could accomplish. They knew that a primary goal of President Obama was to try and bring unity to Congress and they could prevent that from ever happening by the policy of "Oppose anything Obama" even though they didn't have the votes to prevent the Democrats agenda in 2009-2010.

When health care became the issue President Obama supported a compromise plan based upon prior Republican proposals that would provide insurance and health care to the tens of millions of uninsured. President Obama was highly respected and had significant influence with the Democrats proposals for health care and Obama pushed for the combination of private insurance, with employee and employer mandates, and the expansion of Medicaid that Republicans in Congress and conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation had advocated in the 1990's. President Obama was attempting to draw Republicans into the creation of the Healthcare Plan but the Republicans, having already adopted the "Oppose anything Obama" strategy, wanted nothing to do with any bipartisan legislation in Congress.

The Senate's PPACA eventually passed replacing the House Democrats proposal, the Affordable Health Care for America Act (or HR 3962) that included a public option that would have provided insurance to more of the uninsured, and that's what we have today (Obamacare).

But the Republican opposition wasn't over. Republican states refused to embrace the "Republican" ideology of state control and refused to create their own insurance market places. Republicans in Congress, after securing the majority control of the House, refused to provide any legislative fixes to relatively minor problems with Obamacare. The Republicans began a concerted effort to do anything possible to make Obamacare fail and refused to do anything whatsoever the make Obamacare succeed.

For seven years they passed repeal efforts promising a replacement for Obamacare but never creating a replacement for Obamacare and all the while they were trying to ensure it's failure at every possible turn of events.

And their obstructionism took it's toll. Refusal of Republican states to set up their own insurance exchanges caused mass chaos when the federal government was forced to deal with each of those states requirements for rollout in 2013 and the federal government basically had only one year to accomplish what the states should have done over a three year period (with federal funding). The Treasury Department hadn't been able to come up with the compliance forms necessary for the Employer Mandate so the penalties had to be waived for 2014. Republicans sued to block the payments to insurance companies where the law stated those reimbursements were for the State exchanges and not the Federal exchanges... and the Republicans won the lawsuit.

The intentional sabotage of Obamacare reduced the sign-ups necessary for the program to break even causing more expenses to the federal government.

What did work, and that both Republican governors and Democratic governors agreed upon, was the expansion of Medicaid. It was an unqualified success by every state that adopted the expansion.

So while Obamacare's success was delayed by the Republican obstructionism and sabotage the fact remained that Obamacare was still succeeding but at a much slower rate than if the Republicans had supported it.....

And an important fact that even Republicans acknowledged was that if the Democrats would have passed a Single-Payer System there would have been none of the problems related to Obamacare would have existed and 100% of Americans would have had health insurance.

The fact that even Republicans, that are opposed to Obamacare and a single-payer system, admitted that if the Democrats would have passed a single-payer system the Republicans would not have had any foundation, other than cost, to oppose it.

Many liberals picked up on the fact that Republicans couldn't corrupt a single-payer system while Republicans had been very successful in driving up insurance premiums costs and reducing the enrollment necessary for Obamacare to succeed.

Many liberals began to embrace the single-payer system because of the obstructionism by Republicans of Obamacare. It's been that change in advocacy that's made UHC and single-payer system evolved to the front end of the health care debate.

There was never a planned liberal agenda to incrementally transition from Obamacare to UHC. This evolution in political advocacy has been driven the response the anti-Obamacare Republican agenda that can still force Obamacare to fail. If Republicans actually make Obamacare fail, resulting in the loss of health insurance, then we can predict that even more liberals will join the UHC initiative.

The political tables will eventually turn and if Republicans are successful in destroying Obamacare then the Democrats in the future aren't going to try and resurrect Obamacare. They'll go straight to a single-payer UHC proposal.

IF Republicans want to avoid a single-payer system then they'd be well advised to ensure that Obamacare succeeds because if it's not then single-payer is what will eventually replace Obamacare and Republicans will only have themselves to blame.
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Old 10-18-2017, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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The political tables will eventually turn and if Republicans are successful in destroying Obamacare then the Democrats in the future aren't going to try and resurrect Obamacare. They'll go straight to a single-payer UHC proposal.

IF Republicans want to avoid a single-payer system then they'd be well advised to ensure that Obamacare succeeds because if it's not then single-payer is what will eventually replace Obamacare and Republicans will only have themselves to blame.
This, and the rest of your post, is little more than an exercise in Republican-bashing. Chuck Schumer could not possibly have been more anti-GOP.

Nonetheless, I would much prefer a single-payer system to ObamaCare. So if it is a choice between going "straight" to UHC, or propping up ObamaCare--with no other options available--I would far prefer the former.

My guess is that most other Republicans (and conservatives) would, also...
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: The Democrats and incrementalism

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
This, and the rest of your post, is little more than an exercise in Republican-bashing. Chuck Schumer could not possibly have been more anti-GOP.

Nonetheless, I would much prefer a single-payer system to ObamaCare. So if it is a choice between going "straight" to UHC, or propping up ObamaCare--with no other options available--I would far prefer the former.

My guess is that most other Republicans (and conservatives) would, also...
I would prefer that the government gets out of my healthcare, the sooner the better. There is no constitutional requirement for government to have anything to do with private sector healthcare and there is no good reason for them government to insert themselves into it. The last thing we need is some DC bureaucrat deciding what treatments or medicine I am allowed to have.
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