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ObamaCare Discuss What is the true source of rights? at the General Forum; The left is now claiming that healthcare-- free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.) But ...

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Old 09-14-2017, 06:14 PM
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Default What is the true source of rights?

The left is now claiming that healthcare--free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.)

But whether or not one believes that UHC is a good idea, to say that free healthcare is a "right" begs the question: Just what entity, exactly, decides upon (and dispenses) rights?

The left claims that government does. And it will gleefully point to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, as cases in point.

But these are entitlements (which are of dubious constitutionality, in my view)--certainly not "rights."

The Declaration of Independence speaks of the "Creator" and "Nature's God." I can imagine no other source of genuine rights.

Note: The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The left is now claiming that healthcare--free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.)

But whether or not one believes that UHC is a good idea, to say that free healthcare is a "right" begs the question: Just what entity, exactly, decides upon (and dispenses) rights?

The left claims that government does. And it will gleefully point to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, as cases in point.

But these are entitlements (which are of dubious constitutionality, in my view)--certainly not "rights."

The Declaration of Independence speaks of the "Creator" and "Nature's God." I can imagine no other source of genuine rights.

Note: The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."
Disclaimer: I am an atheist.

An interesting point you bring.

I do not believe that god is the source of rights. Rights are granted by governments of people when the people agree to what is a granted right.
In the case of the USA, those rights are spelled out by our Bill Of Rights and our subsequent constitutional ammendments.
When looking at the Bill of Rights, I see no "rights" that demand or require one person pay for or suffer consquences for the "right" of another person. None. In fact, many are written purposely to avoid one being subject to the need of another.

How can healthcare (as a right) be a fundamental right for one without imposing some sort of payment or responsibility upon another? Should a doctor be forced to treat a sick person simply because he is a doctor and the other person is sick? Would that be any different than forcing an auto mechanic to repair my car simply because he has the skills and tools to do so? Would that be any different than forcing a homeowner to provide bed and breakfast to a homeless person simply because the homeowner has a room in his house?
I am not responsible to pay for your healthcare anymore than you are responsible to pay for autocare.

Ones "rights" end before they infringe upon the "rights" of another.
My right to swing my fist exists, but that right ends before it hits your nose.
And your right to healthcare exists, but it ends the moment I am forced to pay for it or the doctor is forced to give it for free.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The left is now claiming that healthcare--free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.)

But whether or not one believes that UHC is a good idea, to say that free healthcare is a "right" begs the question: Just what entity, exactly, decides upon (and dispenses) rights?

The left claims that government does. And it will gleefully point to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, as cases in point.

But these are entitlements (which are of dubious constitutionality, in my view)--certainly not "rights."

The Declaration of Independence speaks of the "Creator" and "Nature's God." I can imagine no other source of genuine rights.

Note: The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."
This is why the left wages war on Christianity and Judaism. If there is no God then rights are dispensed and defined by the government as is the case of the two primary instances of leftist government: communism and fascism.

It is interesting to note that The Bill of Rights defines what the government cannot do. Every one of those first ten amendments is something the left would love to destroy. This way they can make the leftist governmental elite the dispenser of rights .
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

For the Record, I am Christian. That said, I don't believe we need a God to justify human rights at birth. And to be more to the point, I don't believe the Founders felt much differently or they would have insisted on Christianity as the religion of the 13 colonies confederated into our nation.

They did not. And yet the founders did insist that all rights of man are from nature. And, they used the logic of a good many non Christian philosophers to come to that conclusion. So, believers may well justify the rights of man coming from a God, but it isn't an actual universal proof of that.

Man is born to be free. However he tends to enslave himself by insisting on a government to control his neighbors without realizing the individual freedom sacrificed for such convenience. God or no God,,,; I believe it is the natural state of man to be born free. But, it is his nature, an illogical and conflicting preference, to be controlled.

We tend to blame the resulting angst on our women. But, it is in fact, a self inflicted misery.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 762nato View Post
This is why the left wages war on Christianity and Judaism. If there is no God then rights are dispensed and defined by the government as is the case of the two primary instances of leftist government: communism and fascism.

It is interesting to note that The Bill of Rights defines what the government cannot do. Every one of those first ten amendments is something the left would love to destroy. This way they can make the leftist governmental elite the dispenser of rights .
762nato,
I admire your passion.
You say, "It is interesting to note that The Bill of Rights defines what the government cannot do".
Not quite an admission that the government controls/defines rights, but damn close.
God doesn't grant/control/define rights in any nation on this mudball we call earth. Governments of men do. Some governments do it better than others.
The trick is to keep the governments from being controlled by leftists, facists, communists and other folk doing things for "my best interest" at the expense of "your best interest".
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The left is now claiming that healthcare--free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.)

But whether or not one believes that UHC is a good idea, to say that free healthcare is a "right" begs the question: Just what entity, exactly, decides upon (and dispenses) rights?

The left claims that government does. And it will gleefully point to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, as cases in point.

But these are entitlements (which are of dubious constitutionality, in my view)--certainly not "rights."

The Declaration of Independence speaks of the "Creator" and "Nature's God." I can imagine no other source of genuine rights.

Note: The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."


Some truths are simply self evident.

ever since we threw off king george's yoke and sometimes before, we have seen the rights of man
looked at a landless peasant and said-he deserves the vote just as the gentry.
looked at a starving child in a land that is the bread basket of the world and said-that ain't right
looked at women and former slaves and gay men and women and said-they are due our same rights.
For centuries-even as far back as Victor Hugo when he wrote les Miserables; or charles dickens' writings - people have noted the state of their fellow human beings and proclaimed-this must change.
And change it did.
And change will continue because we are full of humanity-after all we are human!
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

I do not believe health care is a right. It is a responsibility.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." - Tommy Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [QUOTE
pjohns;907705]The left is now claiming that healthcare--free healthcare--is a fundamental "right." (Unsurprisingly, Sen. Elizabeth Warren--an ultra-liberal--just proclaimed this.)
I doubt that. Nothing is free and she knows it. Universal healthcare, Now that is something.
Quote:
But whether or not one believes that UHC is a good idea, to say that free healthcare is a "right" begs the question: Just what entity, exactly, decides upon (and dispenses) rights?
We the people
Quote:
The left claims that government does. And it will gleefully point to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, as cases in point.
I just said we the people
Quote:
But these are entitlements (which are of dubious constitutionality, in my view)--certainly not "rights."
Maybe you would be best to not speak for others

Quote:
The Declaration of Independence speaks of the "Creator" and "Nature's God." I can imagine no other source of genuine rights.
There is no creator. It's WE THE PEOPLE I keep telling you

Quote:
Note: The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."
[/QUOTE]Whatever
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Whatever

The U.S. Constitution guarantees only what some have described as "negative" rights--i.e. the right to be free of some things. It never speaks of any positive "rights."
"What ever?"

The concept of "negative rights" is the fundamental principle of the Document. All rights come from the people. It is what makes our form of government unique at the time of it's founding. Further it is what separates us, at least in theory, from most other governments even today.
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