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ObamaCare Discuss What is the true source of rights? at the General Forum; I responded to a post and you and your buddy attacked me personally which is par for the course. I ...

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Old 09-15-2017, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

I responded to a post and you and your buddy attacked me personally which is par for the course. I posted where I believe we get and protect our rights as a people in this country. By the consent of the people. That ain't that hard to grasp.
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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I never said that. It's not about what I want.
And it sure as hell isn't about want you want or believe.
But, for the record, the Founders determined free speech was a basic right of birth. So it is a negative right.


Negative rights are about human rights that do not cost the rights of others. Positive rights require the expense of money and or freedoms so they can be given back by the government. They are essentially redistributive. How does free speech fall into that category?

Do you believe citizens need the Government's permission to speak?

Perhaps you are confused about negative rights versus positive rights. They are similar but not exactly the same. And the question of the thread topic is "What is the true source of rights? " I presume that refers to rights of birth and rights given by the government. Supposedly, our government has no rights to give away WE THE PEOPLE haven't given them.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
I responded to a post and you and your buddy attacked me personally which is par for the course. I posted where I believe we get and protect our rights as a people in this country. By the consent of the people. That ain't that hard to grasp.
Bullsh!t. Bottom line you don't have a clue about positive rights, negative rights, or from where they come. Much less understand the 3rd grade explanation I posted. Best you can do is blabber on about how people post


I've read you stuff,,; Consent of the people? Again you have no idea what that means. Much less how it relates to the question from where "rights" come. If you do, your rendition of what you think know is seriously lacking content. Show us where you posted from where our rights do come. It isn't We The People. That is where our power is sourced. The question is where do rights originate,,,; ie what is the source. Without a covenant, a contract, a Constitution, an understanding of rights, WE THE PEOPLE are just a mob.
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Old 09-16-2017, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

Wow, You are sure on a tear. I doubt if you knew the difference between negative and positive rights 3 months ago. But it honestly has nothing to do with the original question which was "What is the true source of our rights" Not what kind of rights do you have. See, you lost track of the issue we are debating to go on a tear about shlt that don't matter. Then you attack me. If you want to talk about the source of our rights you have a right to your opinion. Even if it is negative. But you don't have a right to tell me my opinion. I said that as a country of, by and for the people we have consented to our rights. That is how representative government works. Now if you want to argue another point be my guest. But don't drag me into your anger and petulant attitudes. I don't need them. I am happy with my position on the subject. I don't have to explain them to you. Especially when I know you will always find a reason to attack me personally. Be nice chief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Bullsh!t. Bottom line you don't have a clue about positive rights, negative rights, or from where they come. Much less understand the 3rd grade explanation I posted. Best you can do is blabber on about how people post


I've read you stuff,,; Consent of the people? Again you have no idea what that means. Much less how it relates to the question from where "rights" come. If you do, your rendition of what you think know is seriously lacking content. Show us where you posted from where our rights do come. It isn't We The People. That is where our power is sourced. The question is where do rights originate,,,; ie what is the source. Without a covenant, a contract, a Constitution, an understanding of rights, WE THE PEOPLE are just a mob.
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Old 09-16-2017, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Wow, You are sure on a tear. I doubt if you knew the difference between negative and positive rights 3 months ago. But it honestly has nothing to do with the original question which was "What is the true source of our rights" Not what kind of rights do you have. See, you lost track of the issue we are debating to go on a tear about shlt that don't matter. Then you attack me. If you want to talk about the source of our rights you have a right to your opinion. Even if it is negative. But you don't have a right to tell me my opinion. I said that as a country of, by and for the people we have consented to our rights. That is how representative government works. Now if you want to argue another point be my guest. But don't drag me into your anger and petulant attitudes. I don't need them. I am happy with my position on the subject. I don't have to explain them to you. Especially when I know you will always find a reason to attack me personally. Be nice chief.
If I might, Mikeyy.

Let me see if I can explain it a little better. There are basic rights that the government has nothing to do with. Live, breathe, pursue happiness.

There are certain things We The People, have asked the government to help us with - maintaining the roads, protecting us, helping those who cannot help themselves, help us uphold our laws.

They do not and cannot tell us what we can say, what air we must breathe (where to live), what religion to follow, what to think, nor what we must do in our lives to survive.

You are correct, they do work for us, not us for them, but as with any employer/employee relationship, money must exchange hands to support the efforts of the employee. Unfortunately, it is no longer based on what we the people are able to pay, it is now based on what the government wants.
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Old 09-16-2017, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
If I might, Mikeyy.

Let me see if I can explain it a little better. There are basic rights that the government has nothing to do with. Live, breathe, pursue happiness.

There are certain things We The People, have asked the government to help us with - maintaining the roads, protecting us, helping those who cannot help themselves, help us uphold our laws.

They do not and cannot tell us what we can say, what air we must breathe (where to live), what religion to follow, what to think, nor what we must do in our lives to survive.

You are correct, they do work for us, not us for them, but as with any employer/employee relationship, money must exchange hands to support the efforts of the employee. Unfortunately, it is no longer based on what we the people are able to pay, it is now based on what the government wants.
I agree though probably not iin the way you think
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Old 09-16-2017, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

I think being able to speak your mind is a right that has to be guaranteed by the force of the law. This is where government comes in. Whether you like government or not it is necessary to protect your rights in this and other instances. Having a right doesn't mean it can't be abridged without protections. When you say that there are basic rights the government has nothing to do with you must tell the people who live in NK how you protect those rights. In our country it's protected by law and government.

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
If I might, Mikeyy.

Let me see if I can explain it a little better. There are basic rights that the government has nothing to do with. Live, breathe, pursue happiness.

There are certain things We The People, have asked the government to help us with - maintaining the roads, protecting us, helping those who cannot help themselves, help us uphold our laws.

They do not and cannot tell us what we can say, what air we must breathe (where to live), what religion to follow, what to think, nor what we must do in our lives to survive.

You are correct, they do work for us, not us for them, but as with any employer/employee relationship, money must exchange hands to support the efforts of the employee. Unfortunately, it is no longer based on what we the people are able to pay, it is now based on what the government wants.
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
I think being able to speak your mind is a right that has to be guaranteed by the force of the law. This is where government comes in. Whether you like government or not it is necessary to protect your rights in this and other instances. Having a right doesn't mean it can't be abridged without protections. When you say that there are basic rights the government has nothing to do with you must tell the people who live in NK how you protect those rights. In our country it's protected by law and government.
In previous statements, I very clearly said that the government protects those innate rights. Freedom of speech is one of them. That does not mean they have 'granted' that right to me, it means they 'protect' that right for all people. There is a huge difference between granting, which means they can take it away from you, and protecting, which means they will defend you from others, and the law will defend you from them and others, who would try and take that right from you.

Since NK has a different form of government, who have chosen to suppress those innate rights, and at some point the people must have permitted them to.
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
In previous statements, I very clearly said that the government protects those innate rights. Freedom of speech is one of them. That does not mean they have 'granted' that right to me, it means they 'protect' that right for all people. There is a huge difference between granting, which means they can take it away from you, and protecting, which means they will defend you from others, and the law will defend you from them and others, who would try and take that right from you.

Since NK has a different form of government, who have chosen to suppress those innate rights, and at some point the people must have permitted them to.
For the most part I agree with you vis-a-vis rights.
BUT (and you knew that but was coming),
Government granted vs government protected rights is really semantics in my opinion. The USA does a pretty good job concerning individual rights. So does Germany.
Another BUT.
Germany, for the most part, has free speech (as does the USA), BUT, in Germany, one does not have the free speech of giving a Nazi salute and shouting Seig Hiel That free speech does not exist in Germany.

As you said, the right to free speech is innate. Protection of that right exists whithin the power of the government and in the case of the USA, the power of the people controlling the government.
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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For the most part I agree with you vis-a-vis rights.
BUT (and you knew that but was coming),
Government granted vs government protected rights is really semantics in my opinion. The USA does a pretty good job concerning individual rights. So does Germany.
Another BUT.
Germany, for the most part, has free speech (as does the USA), BUT, in Germany, one does not have the free speech of giving a Nazi salute and shouting Seig Hiel That free speech does not exist in Germany.

As you said, the right to free speech is innate. Protection of that right exists whithin the power of the government and in the case of the USA, the power of the people controlling the government.
Of course a 'but' was coming.

I'll disagree regarding 'granted' and 'protected'. Granting means you can't do it without their permission (legally), protecting means they will keep others from interrupting your use of that right.

The interesting innate right, living, IS one the government can take from you, if you have violated the same innate right of another human. Since I personally believe in eye for an eye in such cases, I have no problem with it.
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Old 09-16-2017, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: What is the true source of rights?

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Of course a 'but' was coming.

I'll disagree regarding 'granted' and 'protected'. Granting means you can't do it without their permission (legally), protecting means they will keep others from interrupting your use of that right.

The interesting innate right, living, IS one the government can take from you, if you have violated the same innate right of another human. Since I personally believe in eye for an eye in such cases, I have no problem with it.
Is not 'protecting', almost the same as 'granting'?

Because I am a US citizen, I have the right of free speech. Technically, it is protected by our Constitution (and in a sense, granted by the same authority).
My 'protection' of that right is somewhat reliant upon the granting authority (being the US government in my situation). I can legally stand on a milk crate in the center of town and shout hate speech without harm to myself (legally), but only so long as the government (granting entity) protects me from people that would do harm to me for being hateful.
Semantics
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