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News & Current Events Discuss Herman Cain passed away..... at the General Forum; Originally Posted by GottaGo Same shame, Mr. W. Whites were not the only people to own slaves or have business ...

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Old 08-02-2020, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Same shame, Mr. W. Whites were not the only people to own slaves or have business in the slave trade.Considering how long it has been since there was any slave trade or ownership in the US, I'd say as a civilized society, we have all grown and learned from past mistakes.
Shame on me?
why? AZRWinger says we should remember the history of the slavery and segregation of the democrats. He's right. But somehow it's wrong to point out as a simple historical fact that in the United States of America white people were 99.9% responsible for slavery and segregation here.
White people of all parties. including a Republicans.
The Republican party of the 1800s, while it was FAR better than the Democrats on those issue, still had much growing to do.
Many "pragmatic" Republicans of the era only wanted to stop the growth of slavery into the new territories. NOT abolish slavevery. Even Lincoln, a Republican, would have let slavery stand in the south if they agreed not to secede.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Considering how long it has been since there was any slave trade or ownership in the US, I'd say as a civilized society, we have all grown and learned from past mistakes.
I agree 100%
Including white democrats today.

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
...Unfortunately, there are some who like to wallow in the idea that everybody still innately harbors the idea that someone with a different skin tone is some how 'less'.
Simply mentioning facts of history seems to make some people think that OTHERS Believe that those living today are responsible for that history. Well seems to me that is NOT the case with most folks thinking.
not mine for sure.

As far as thinking that other "innately harbors the idea that someone with a different skin tone is some how 'less'.".
Well, that's simply an individual issues. No one can know what others really think, Until they said so or act out in fashion consistent with the beliefs, I assume the best.

But it's would be less than clear thinking to believe that 400+ years of a nations history, where the ideas of white supremacy were fixed in to law and culture from it's inception, has completely disappeared since the 1970 -80s. and it has NO lingering effect on American people's mindsets.

thankfully the U.S. and the world has grown A LOT. But just as what the founding fathers did positively makes a difference TODAY in our actions and thinking. So do the lingering negative cultural mindset that been a part of the social and economic fabric of the nation.
Denying it doesn't help.
Pretending that it only effects the democrats doesn't help, or make sense historically or in the world today.
Recognizing and dealing with it WHERE EVER it is the way to go seems to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Trying to paste that idea on everyone's forehead is going to get some blowback.....
sorry, but you assumed an idea that i was not trying to paste.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Oh, I did leave out something rather important.
According to the article, Malcolm X wrote a letter in 1950 to then-President Truman, "declaring himself to be a communist."
I'm not a communist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is true that George Wallace, near the end of his life, reportedly repudiated his former stance as a staunch segregationist. But it is as a segregationist--standing in the schoolhouse door, in Alabama--that he will forever be remembered. Likewise, even though Malcolm X eventually "no longer called for the separation of black people from white people," according to the article, he will forever be remembered for that.
That will be remembered Just like George Washington for Owning Slaves, Jefferson Owning Slaves, Patrick Henry Owning Slaves. While using Slavery as metaphor for the treatment they were getting from England.

It's Part of the history, Not to be erased.
But most people choose to honor the aspects their FLAWED character that Produced Good effect and represented the best.

For me Malcom X is a great example of a man who found himself in an oppressive society and initially tried to ignore the problems but found the courage and a flawed way to begin to deal with the clear oppression. And as he moved in the mission he grew. He began to cast off various aspects of his thinking that he found fallacious. All the while Looking to help his fellow man, initially African Americans, then All people of African decent, then finally ALL People.

Maybe to you he should only be thought of in a negative sense.
But to me he's an example of a brilliant real man trying to make sense of a crazy racist America the best way he could. And along the way he made many great points worth hearing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns
Well, yes--until one further reads that this gave rise to the Black Power movement (a term coined by the radical Stokely Carmichael).
Why was he radical?
Was there anything to be radical about?
Like maybe lack of rights to vote? ...No taxation with representation...


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns
I do agree with that--just as you can probably find some things about Joseph Stalin (the murderer of at least 20 million innocents) with which I would agree--like, for instance, his alliance against Adolf Hitler.
Ok, so How many people did Malcolm X kill exactly? Zero.
How many gulags did he start PJ?
So why the hyperbolic jump to Stalin and Hitler?
It makes ZERO sense pj.

How many slaves did George Washington have?
Nathen Bedford Forest, the founder of the KKK has a freakin' State park named after him. We're told he was Great War Hero... for the confederate states of America. How many blacks and whites did he kill? Yet some folks think it's OK to revere him. maybe you should vent some outrage at that the people of that state instead of being so outraged at my narrow personal appreciation of Malcom X.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns
But are you certain that Malcolm X's advocacy of the Second Amendment was due to pure motives?
Or is it possible that he might have wanted to keep black people armed, in the event of an upcoming race war?
I'm sure that he only used weapons in self defense. And not even to kill the overtly racist cops of the 1950s and 60s.
however I can't say i'm sure that all current people who voted for Trump have pure motives. many of the alt-right types are in fact looking for a race war. Maybe we should ask Dylan Root their motives.
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Old 08-03-2020, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
African American unemployment is at 15.4%.
Unless you have been living under a rock for all of 2020, you do realize that there was a Pandemic that caused local governments to shut down most of their economies. Prior to that, African American unemployment was at it's lowest point EVER!
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:26 AM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Shame on me?
why? AZRWinger says we should remember the history of the slavery and segregation of the democrats. He's right. But somehow it's wrong to point out as a simple historical fact that in the United States of America white people were 99.9% responsible for slavery and segregation here.
White people of all parties. including a Republicans.
Slavery did not start here in America, nor did it start with 'white people'. There is more history to slavery than the 1600s, here in the US.

[/quote]The Republican party of the 1800s, while it was FAR better than the Democrats on those issue, still had much growing to do.
Many "pragmatic" Republicans of the era only wanted to stop the growth of slavery into the new territories. NOT abolish slavevery. Even Lincoln, a Republican, would have let slavery stand in the south if they agreed not to secede.

I agree 100%
Including white democrats today.

Simply mentioning facts of history seems to make some people think that OTHERS Believe that those living today are responsible for that history. Well seems to me that is NOT the case with most folks thinking.
not mine for sure.[/quote]The current mindsets, in which a number of the 'cancel culture' seem to hype, do believe that anyone with a lighter skin tone habor some racism. And if you deny you are racists, that means you really are racist. lack of logic and non-linear thinking seems to be the game of the day.

Quote:
As far as thinking that other "innately harbors the idea that someone with a different skin tone is some how 'less'.".
Well, that's simply an individual issues. No one can know what others really think, Until they said so or act out in fashion consistent with the beliefs, I assume the best.
That's the point I am trying to make. While you may be an exception, there are people of all skin tones who are pushing the opposite, and with out exception. If you are white, you are guilty. No trial, no jury, no review of your actions. Because of a fluke of birth, you are guilty. And this is the spewage that is thrown at people every day. Talk about raising tensions.

Quote:
But it's would be less than clear thinking to believe that 400+ years of a nations history, where the ideas of white supremacy were fixed in to law and culture from it's inception, has completely disappeared since the 1970 -80s. and it has NO lingering effect on American people's mindsets.
With no doubt, there are still people who believe in the white supremacy line. My father was one of the worst racists and bigots I've ever met. It was down right painful to see it. But those with those mindsets are fewer and fewer as time goes on, and most of those with the limited view, if nothing else, keep it to themselves for the most part.

Quote:
thankfully the U.S. and the world has grown A LOT. But just as what the founding fathers did positively makes a difference TODAY in our actions and thinking. So do the lingering negative cultural mindset that been a part of the social and economic fabric of the nation.
Denying it doesn't help.
Pretending that it only effects the democrats doesn't help, or make sense historically or in the world today.
Recognizing and dealing with it WHERE EVER it is the way to go seems to me.
When it comes to racial issues, I don't look at political position for the most part, other than to try and broaden people's view of what they can do to improve their lives without government involvement. Quit seeing the government for what they can give you, in lieu of helping the individual to achieve.


Quote:
sorry, but you assumed an idea that i was not trying to paste.
That was not directed at you, but on the people previously referenced, that claim people are guilty no matter what.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
African American unemployment is at 15.4%.
Is that the best you've got? Completely ignoring everything that has been happening world wide, and you whine that African American unemployment is high.

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Old 08-03-2020, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

I thought this tread subject was about Herman Cain???

My 2cnts;;;;
The most remarkable thing I observed about Herman Cain was that is personality, virtue and integrity was so large, one did not even notice his race.

Unless they were looking for it.
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Old 08-03-2020, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Shame on me?
why? AZRWinger says we should remember the history of the slavery and segregation of the democrats. He's right. But somehow it's wrong to point out as a simple historical fact that in the United States of America white people were 99.9% responsible for slavery and segregation here.
White people of all parties. including a Republicans.
The Republican party of the 1800s, while it was FAR better than the Democrats on those issue, still had much growing to do.
Many "pragmatic" Republicans of the era only wanted to stop the growth of slavery into the new territories. NOT abolish slavevery. Even Lincoln, a Republican, would have let slavery stand in the south if they agreed not to secede.

I agree 100%
Including white democrats today.


Simply mentioning facts of history seems to make some people think that OTHERS Believe that those living today are responsible for that history. Well seems to me that is NOT the case with most folks thinking.
not mine for sure.

As far as thinking that other "innately harbors the idea that someone with a different skin tone is some how 'less'.".
Well, that's simply an individual issues. No one can know what others really think, Until they said so or act out in fashion consistent with the beliefs, I assume the best.

But it's would be less than clear thinking to believe that 400+ years of a nations history, where the ideas of white supremacy were fixed in to law and culture from it's inception, has completely disappeared since the 1970 -80s. and it has NO lingering effect on American people's mindsets.

thankfully the U.S. and the world has grown A LOT. But just as what the founding fathers did positively makes a difference TODAY in our actions and thinking. So do the lingering negative cultural mindset that been a part of the social and economic fabric of the nation.
Denying it doesn't help.
Pretending that it only effects the democrats doesn't help, or make sense historically or in the world today.
Recognizing and dealing with it WHERE EVER it is the way to go seems to me.


sorry, but you assumed an idea that i was not trying to paste.
Just a little challenge to the virtue of the Democrats and out pops Robin DeAngelo with white fragility, all whites are guilty. A lucrative scam in the age of BLM. But a scam nonetheless.

The simple fact is Democrats are the party of slavery and segregation. There is no need to generalize or racialize the issue. Taking up the mantle of racist identity politics to avoid considering the ugly history of Democrats is foolish but race baiting is also a favorite Democrat tactic.

Instead of Malcom X how about Ida Wells? Ida Wells campaigned against real white devils, the Democrat condoned lynch mobs. She wrote the black family had two real friends Abraham Lincoln and Smith and Wesson at a time when a black woman faced real danger for expressing unpopular views. Oh wait, she didn't have the benefit of a race baiting Hollywood director romanticizing her life.
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Old 08-03-2020, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I'm not a communist.
Where did that come from?

I never suspected that you were.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
That will be remembered Just like George Washington for Owning Slaves, Jefferson Owning Slaves, Patrick Henry Owning Slaves.
These people--like all people--were simply products of their times.

So I do not see their owning slaves as being evil. (We should really resist the temptation to superimpose twenty-first century ethics upon eighteenth-century men.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
For me Malcom X is a great example of a man who found himself in an oppressive society and initially tried to ignore the problems but found the courage and a flawed way to begin to deal with the clear oppression.
Whenever I read the word, "oppressive" (or its noun version, "oppression"), I automatically find it very difficult to take the rest of the sentence seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Maybe to you he should only be thought of in a negative sense.

But to me he's an example of a brilliant real man trying to make sense of a crazy racist America the best way he could.
To describe America--either the America of today, or the America of the late 1960s--as "crazy" and "racist," is so utterly jaw dropping as to hardly be worthy of a response.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Why was he radical?
Was there anything to be radical about?
Like maybe lack of rights to vote? ...No taxation with representation...
You do not think, then, that legitimate civil-rights issues could be addressed adequately, absent one's alignment with the Black Panther Party and the All-African Revolutionary Party?

Interesting...

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Ok, so How many people did Malcolm X kill exactly? Zero.
How many gulags did he start PJ?
So why the hyperbolic jump to Stalin and Hitler?
That is what is known as a strawman argument.

I never claimed that Malcolm X "kill[ed]" anybody, or started any "gulags."

You noted that there are some things about Malcolm X that I would find pleasing; and I responded that there are some things about Joseph Stalin that I would find pleasing, also.

But that is as far as the analogy went.

At least, until you expanded it.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Nathen Bedford Forest, the founder of the KKK has a freakin' State park named after him. We're told he was Great War Hero... for the confederate states of America. How many blacks and whites did he kill? Yet some folks think it's OK to revere him.
I have long had ambivalent feelings about Nathan Bedford Forrest.

On the plus side, he was truly a military genius--more so than even Robert E. Lee--even though he had very little formal schooling.

But he was a slave trader prior to the Civil War (although slavery was not considered, by all, to be evil at that time; some felt that it was, whereas others thought that it was natural).

After the war, he was a co-founder of the KKK (although, in all fairness to the man, it should probably be noted that he left the organization, when it became too violent even for him).

And during the Civil War, he presided over the (entirely gratuitous) massacre of black soldiers at Fort Pillow--soldiers who had asked to surrender.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I'm sure that he only used weapons in self defense. And not even to kill the overtly racist cops of the 1950s and 60s.
however I can't say i'm sure that all current people who voted for Trump have pure motives. many of the alt-right types are in fact looking for a race war. Maybe we should ask Dylan Root their motives.
This is pure deflection. (I was under the impression that this thread was never about Donald Trump. But some Never Trumpers just cannot help themselves, I suppose...)
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Old 08-03-2020, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Just a little challenge to the virtue of the Democrats and out pops Robin DeAngelo with white fragility, all whites are guilty. A lucrative scam in the age of BLM. But a scam nonetheless.
So what has that got to do with anything i said exactly?

Seems some folks here want to fight the Woke BLM college radical. guess what I ain't them.
if you want to talk to me please don't project your Left wing mirror image on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The simple fact is Democrats are the party of slavery and segregation.
Were the party. is a more accurate way to put it AZ.
If you care about accuracy more than smearing... i mean "challenging to the virtue" of democrats.

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
There is no need to generalize or racialize the issue.
there was no need to make the issue about party.
Which you did when you said "Yes he (John Lewis) was courageous to stand up against the Democrat institution of Jim Crow segregation."
As if Republicains hands were clean in the 1960's
And somehow ignoring that John Lewis was a long time democrat himself.
there was NO NEED to go there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Taking up the mantle of racist identity politics to avoid considering the ugly history of Democrats is foolish but race baiting is also a favorite Democrat tactic.
Yes, sadly it's become fashionable and I dislike it myself.
However in the context of a Photo of John Lewis getting his head cracked in by a cop. It's a simply historical fact that "identity politics" was part of THE LAW. And part of the social structure. And sorry the photo is of a white cop defending real white privilege. not "democrat" privilege. Any white republican that traveled or moved to the south had benefits of his race going for him not his party.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Instead of Malcom X how about Ida Wells? Ida Wells campaigned against real white devils, the Democrat condoned lynch mobs. She wrote the black family had two real friends Abraham Lincoln and Smith and Wesson at a time when a black woman faced real danger for expressing unpopular views. Oh wait, she didn't have the benefit of a race baiting Hollywood director romanticizing her life.
How about BOTH Malcolm X and Ida wells. She's included in the HOST I mentioned earlier.
This was my original quote
"MLK, John Lewis, Malcolm X and a host of others radicals starting with Fredrick Douglas, Harriet Tubman and John Brown, helped pave the way and open the space for Black Businessmen like Herman Cain, no matter where those Businessmen landed politically."
Somehow, you and PJ only saw "Malcolm X" and your heads exploded. The horror show you imagine him to be. And then you also assert that MY view of Malcolm X is framed by a movie.
sheesh man what's your problem.

What race baiting movie did you watch that gave you the negative view you have AZ?
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Last edited by mr wonder; 08-03-2020 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 08-03-2020, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: Herman Cain passed away.....

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Slavery did not start here in America, nor did it start with 'white people'. There is more history to slavery than the 1600s, here in the US.
And segregation and slavery didn't start with the democrats either.
Which is the MAIN point I was trying to make to AZ by mentioning "white people" in the U.S..


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
The current mindsets, in which a number of the 'cancel culture' seem to hype, do believe that anyone with a lighter skin tone habor some racism. And if you deny you are racists, that means you really are racist. lack of logic and non-linear thinking seems to be the game of the day.

That's the point I am trying to make. While you may be an exception,...
Frankly I think I'm the rule. Not the exception.
Cancel culture is crazy and many people of the left, right and other are sick of it.
But sadly the extremist have captured the microphone (and the colleges). Making legit rational conversation about issues difficult.
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