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News & Current Events Discuss 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition' at the General Forum; Originally Posted by GottaGo The police did not initiate with the old man, the old man initiated by stepping in ...

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Old 06-08-2020, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
The police did not initiate with the old man, the old man initiated by stepping in front of the police, blocking their way... something similar to the Native American incident not that long ago.
Well I think the old man was there 1st and police walked over to him and they initiated giving orders, as to where he should move and how fast. The man was trying to talk to them... peacefully... and instead of repliuing... walking around him or moving him aside as you would your father or even your drunk uncle they pushed him down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
The police response IMO, was not appropriate. they did not need to push the man, a simple arm block would have sufficed, much less once down, ignoring him. I believe it was someone a couple of people behind the initial officers that called for assistance for the man.
I agree,

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Especially in the current social environment, the old man was beyond foolish to do what he did. One does not poke a bear, unless they are will to possibly face the consequences.
So you're saying that the police are like wild animals.
Animals that don't have self control in some situations.
Yes, I'd agree.
Seems to me they should act like responsible men and women, exhibit great self control, and protect the citizens when doing their jobs.
We should not EXPECT the police to be like frightened rabid animals who when they are poked with a cell phone they attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
He did not deserve the extent of the reaction,
agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
but to canonize him for getting the reaction is the result of the extremists who screech 'See? See? Fascists!' plays into the sad pantomime of virtuous liberals.
Look some KKK and Neo Nazi agree with what Trump does It doesn't mean that what's he's addressed is in support of them.
Same here. the Police were WRONG. and It should be note as another in a PATTERN of Piss POOR police behavior. Fascist would cheer and make excuses, while George Washington would be ashamed.
It points to the need for CHANGE.
and shouldn't be partisan talking point.
I'd like to think that NO one wants a country where police regularly act like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
No, that is what a civilized society does in the face of violent rioters and looters. They were enforcing a CURFEW to prevent the crap that has been going on. If a curfew is imposed and you are out in the street defying it, you get what you deserve. Period.
In free society the CURFEWS are antithetical in general. but if announced they should be done with NO force or the LEAST amount of force. ESPECIALLY of the people are peaceful.
Totalitarian regimens tell there people that whatever the gov't does is OK. and the people "get what they deserve." if they step out of line "period"
last I checked this was still America comrade.

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Apples and oranges. 1 guy in a car causing violence does not equal hundreds, or thousands of rioters, looting and burning down neighborhoods. The 1 guy was arrested, charged and convicted for his actions. Nobody else caused trouble after that. No neighborhoods were vandalized and burned. It happened on 1 day and was over.
who was comparing the damage caused by one racist killer of peacefully protesters to the damage of looters and rioters?
the comparison was between KKK and Neo-Nazis in the mingling among "good people" and AntiFa etc mingling among peaceful protesters.
and how to the "good people" are supposed to eject them. or the if the good people should stay home when they see them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
In this case, the protests have gone on and on and on with no end in sight. Hundreds of violent THUGS have gone to great extend to vandalize and burn down areas all over this country. We are reaching the point of all out anarchy. If a community decides that they are going to stop that before it gets out of hand, good for them. They imposed a curfew and were serious about enforcing it. If some decide to defy the curfew, they SHOULD suffer the consequences.
all out anarchy? no end in sight? really?
Is that's what's happening in you city? or just on your TV?

It wasn't happening in the video of the police shoving the old man.
and there was no looting or rioting there.
And sooo the old man was a thug?
Look, the police are paid to protect the citizens not FROM thugs, not BE the thugs.
--OK, all you peaceful people we're going to crack your heads open to keep you SAFE.--
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Well I think the old man was there 1st and police walked over to him and they initiated giving orders, as to where he should move and how fast. The man was trying to talk to them... peacefully... and instead of repliuing... walking around him or moving him aside as you would your father or even your drunk uncle they pushed him down.


I agree,


So you're saying that the police are like wild animals.
Animals that don't have self control in some situations.
Yes, I'd agree.
Seems to me they should act like responsible men and women, exhibit great self control, and protect the citizens when doing their jobs.
We should not EXPECT the police to be like frightened rabid animals who when they are poked with a cell phone they attack.


agreed.

Look some KKK and Neo Nazi agree with what Trump does It doesn't mean that what's he's addressed is in support of them.
Same here. the Police were WRONG. and It should be note as another in a PATTERN of Piss POOR police behavior. Fascist would cheer and make excuses, while George Washington would be ashamed.
It points to the need for CHANGE.
and shouldn't be partisan talking point.
I'd like to think that NO one wants a country where police regularly act like that.




In free society the CURFEWS are antithetical in general. but if announced they should be done with NO force or the LEAST amount of force. ESPECIALLY of the people are peaceful.
Totalitarian regimens tell there people that whatever the gov't does is OK. and the people "get what they deserve." if they step out of line "period"
last I checked this was still America comrade.


who was comparing the damage caused by one racist killer of peacefully protesters to the damage of looters and rioters?
the comparison was between KKK and Neo-Nazis in the mingling among "good people" and AntiFa etc mingling among peaceful protesters.
and how to the "good people" are supposed to eject them. or the if the good people should stay home when they see them.


all out anarchy? no end in sight? really?
Is that's what's happening in you city? or just on your TV?

It wasn't happening in the video of the police shoving the old man.
and there was no looting or rioting there.
And sooo the old man was a thug?
and the police are paid to protect the citizens not FROM thugs not BE thugs.
OK, all you peaceful people we're going to crack your heads open to keep you SAFE.
When there are THUGS in the streets rioting and looting on a nightly basis, severe actions need to be taken to protect the INNOCENT owners of the small shops, businesses and residents that happen to be in the way of the violence. If that means that a curfew is enforced for a period of time, so be it. I don't like it either but it is preferable to burning down entire sections of the city or specific neighborhoods.

And if you have a curfew and don't enforce it, it becomes nothing but a suggestion and will do exactly NOTHING to stop the violence.

If the people in that area don't like curfews, QUIT RIOTING AND LOOTING! Stand up for yourself and others in the neighborhood. Work WITH THE POLICE to stop the rioting and looting instead of getting in their face and confronting them at every turn. A majority of those officers are NOT the killers that they are protesting. They are there to protect those that are protesting their existence.

I don't know you life experience and I am sure you have most likely had some bad experience(s) with law enforcement. If that is the case, you have my sympathy. But that does not make all law enforcement your enemy. But that appears to be the sentiment in your posts on this matter.

If there are bad actors in Law Enforcement, they should be dealt with. The 4 officers involved in the killing of Mr. Floyd HAVE been arrested are about to go through the justice system. Why are people still protesting? Are we supposed to suspend the entire judicial system in this instance and just hang those 4 officers?

In this case a lawful order was issued to stay off of the street during the curfew. This man chose not too. Bad decision. This does NOT make us NAZI's or Fascists or anything else. It is a step necessary to bring about the rule of Law and Order. Had the people in the area rejected the violence in the first place, the curfew would not be needed.
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
When there are THUGS in the streets rioting and looting on a nightly basis, severe actions need to be taken to protect the INNOCENT owners of the small shops, businesses and residents that happen to be in the way of the violence. If that means that a curfew is enforced for a period of time, so be it. I don't like it either but it is preferable to burning down entire sections of the city or specific neighborhoods.

And if you have a curfew and don't enforce it, it becomes nothing but a suggestion and will do exactly NOTHING to stop the violence.

If the people in that area don't like curfews, QUIT RIOTING AND LOOTING! Stand up for yourself and others in the neighborhood. Work WITH THE POLICE to stop the rioting and looting instead of getting in their face and confronting them at every turn. A majority of those officers are NOT the killers that they are protesting. They are there to protect those that are protesting their existence.

I don't know you life experience and I am sure you have most likely had some bad experience(s) with law enforcement. If that is the case, you have my sympathy. But that does not make all law enforcement your enemy. But that appears to be the sentiment in your posts on this matter.

If there are bad actors in Law Enforcement, they should be dealt with. The 4 officers involved in the killing of Mr. Floyd HAVE been arrested are about to go through the justice system. Why are people still protesting? Are we supposed to suspend the entire judicial system in this instance and just hang those 4 officers?

In this case a lawful order was issued to stay off of the street during the curfew. This man chose not too. Bad decision. This does NOT make us NAZI's or Fascists or anything else. It is a step necessary to bring about the rule of Law and Order. Had the people in the area rejected the violence in the first place, the curfew would not be needed.

When there's NO rioting or Looting in front of your army of Police at your location, and the people are peaceful you do not NEED to USE FORCE to begin to enforce a curfew
Is that something you'd agree with?
Or is any and all force justified to enforce a curfew on people that are not breaking any other laws?
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
When there's NO rioting or Looting in front of your army of Police at your location, and the people are peaceful you do not NEED to USE FORCE to begin to enforce a curfew
Is that something you'd agree with?
Or is any and all force justified to enforce a curfew on people that are not breaking any other laws?
So are they supposed to wait until buildings are burning to enforce the curfew?
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Well I think the old man was there 1st and police walked over to him and they initiated giving orders, as to where he should move and how fast. The man was trying to talk to them... peacefully... and instead of repliuing... walking around him or moving him aside as you would your father or even your drunk uncle they pushed him down.


I agree,


So you're saying that the police are like wild animals.
Animals that don't have self control in some situations.
Yes, I'd agree.
Seems to me they should act like responsible men and women, exhibit great self control, and protect the citizens when doing their jobs.
We should not EXPECT the police to be like frightened rabid animals who when they are poked with a cell phone they attack.


agreed.

Look some KKK and Neo Nazi agree with what Trump does It doesn't mean that what's he's addressed is in support of them.
Same here. the Police were WRONG. and It should be note as another in a PATTERN of Piss POOR police behavior. Fascist would cheer and make excuses, while George Washington would be ashamed.
It points to the need for CHANGE.
and shouldn't be partisan talking point.
I'd like to think that NO one wants a country where police regularly act like that.


--
Edit by me for separation

If you've watched the original video, it is very clear the man stepped out in front of the police as they cam forward. Several of the videos since then seem to start after he stepped out from the side lines.

Of course the police should not be aggressive, but you are discounting the environment they are dealing with. One that would like have you or me in high defense at best. The are humans, but trained to be better than the average.

It is not bravery to walk up behind someone in a high stress environment and yell BOO!, why would you interrupt an obvious police presence in such an environment?

I'll repeat myself: The man did not deserve the level of response he got, but it was foolish of him to think that there would not be a response.
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

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Old 06-08-2020, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
So are they supposed to wait until buildings are burning to enforce the curfew?
Are the cops fortune tellers now too?
They can predict which peaceful crowds of old men will burn the city down?

BTW you didn't answer either of my earlier questions.
When there's NO rioting or Looting in front of your army of Police at your location, and the people are peaceful you do not NEED to USE FORCE to begin to enforce a curfew
Is that something you'd agree with?
Or is any and all force justified to enforce a curfew on people that are not breaking any other laws?
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Old 06-08-2020, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Are the cops fortune tellers now too?
They can predict which peaceful crowds of old men will burn the city down?
Being as riots have been breaking out in many cities, it doesn't take a fortune teller to predict rioting and looting.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
BTW you didn't answer either of my earlier questions.
When there's NO rioting or Looting in front of your army of Police at your location, and the people are peaceful you do not NEED to USE FORCE to begin to enforce a curfew
Is that something you'd agree with?
If a curfew is to be effective, it has be be enforced. Otherwise it is nothing more than a suggestion.

As to your assertion that the protesters were peaceful, they were peaceful in other cities until they weren't. You seem to be stuck on the peaceful part of the protests but seem to be ambivalent to the point of obtuse about the rioting and looting that sprung from other peaceful protests.

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Or is any and all force justified to enforce a curfew on people that are not breaking any other laws?
While you are correct that there is not law specifically about the current curfew, the local government has some discretion in times of crisis to enforce lock down orders to protect the community at large for short periods of time. At by choosing to ignore the curfew order, the man in question was defying a lawful order.

And then by reaching across towards the officers gun, he made himself a threat to the officer. I don't care if there was a curfew or not, NOBODY should ever try to reach for the gun of a LEO. That could get you shot.
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Old 06-08-2020, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Being as riots have been breaking out in many cities, it doesn't take a fortune teller to predict rioting and looting.
Seems to me it does. there are several major cities where there has been no looting or riots at the protest or after.
to assume there will be when there's NO indication of it WHERE YOU ARE at a moment when there's NO indication of it makes NO sense at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
If a curfew is to be effective, it has be be enforced. Otherwise it is nothing more than a suggestion.
Curfews can be enforced without putting old men in the hospital.. or anyone in the hospital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
As to your assertion that the protesters were peaceful, they were peaceful in other cities until they weren't. You seem to be stuck on the peaceful part of the protests but seem to be ambivalent to the point of obtuse about the rioting and looting that sprung from other peaceful protests.
they weren't working "in other cities". you seem to stuck on the idea that riots and looting automatically break out from peaceful protest. Why ASSUME the worse and use force when there's ZERO indication that's it's needed.
Being READY for a Riot... which they were... and treating people as if they've ALREADY started one are 2 different things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
While you are correct that there is not law specifically about the current curfew, the local government has some discretion in times of crisis to enforce lock down orders to protect the community at large for short periods of time. At by choosing to ignore the curfew order, the man in question was defying a lawful order.
there's the law... or "lawful orders"... And then there's the Spirit of the law.
the lawful order was meant to "protect the community at large" which the 75 year old man is a part of.
And the question is , was it necessary to use FORCE to protect the community at large in that moment. The answer is NO, absolutely NOT.
did it protect the man. NO! Did it help "to protect the community at large" NO.
so the cop's actions were completely uncalled for and IMO criminal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
And then by reaching across towards the officers gun, he made himself a threat to the officer. I don't care if there was a curfew or not, NOBODY should ever try to reach for the gun of a LEO. That could get you shot.
is that what you see when you watch the video? the old man is trying to reach for the gun of a LEO? With his phone?

I'm AMAZED at what some of you see... and assume.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:41 AM
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Default Re: 75-year-old man pushed to ground by Buffalo police 'comes from a peace tradition'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Seems to me it does. there are several major cities where there has been no looting or riots at the protest or after.
to assume there will be when there's NO indication of it WHERE YOU ARE at a moment when there's NO indication of it makes NO sense at all.

Curfews can be enforced without putting old men in the hospital.. or anyone in the hospital.


they weren't working "in other cities". you seem to stuck on the idea that riots and looting automatically break out from peaceful protest. Why ASSUME the worse and use force when there's ZERO indication that's it's needed.
Being READY for a Riot... which they were... and treating people as if they've ALREADY started one are 2 different things.





there's the law... or "lawful orders"... And then there's the Spirit of the law.
the lawful order was meant to "protect the community at large" which the 75 year old man is a part of.
And the question is , was it necessary to use FORCE to protect the community at large in that moment. The answer is NO, absolutely NOT.
did it protect the man. NO! Did it help "to protect the community at large" NO.
so the cop's actions were completely uncalled for and IMO criminal.



is that what you see when you watch the video? the old man is trying to reach for the gun of a LEO? With his phone?

I'm AMAZED at what some of you see... and assume.
Once again, you seem to want to see this as an isolated incident, independent of current events around the country. Just because rioting and looting as not started in that specific neighborhood doesn't mean it won't devolve into that. I'm sure a few other cities thought the same and are now having to make plans to rebuild what was destroyed. I see nothing wrong with the police getting ahead of the situation to PREVENT it from happening.

As to the old man, once again, when a curfew is issued, obey the curfew. DON'T physically challenge the police as it usually ends badly for those that do. Stupid choices make for bad results.
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