Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > News & Current Events
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

News & Current Events Discuss Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered at the General Forum; https://www.foxnews.com/politics/har...n-was-murdered Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered Democratic presidential candidates Sens. Kamala Harris of California and Elizabeth ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:43 PM
CindyB's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,136
Thanks: 9,253
Thanked 5,494 Times in 3,399 Posts
Default Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/har...n-was-murdered


Quote:
Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Democratic presidential candidates Sens. Kamala Harris of California and Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts are taking heat from fact-checkers for claiming the white officer who fatally shot Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri five years ago “murdered” the black teenager.

“Harris, Warren Wrong About Brown Shooting,” read a headline Monday from the non-profit website factcheck.org.


Washington Post Fact Checker Glenn Kessler on Monday also awarded both senators four pinocchios over their claims.

FORMER DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKER IN MISSOURI CRITICIZES WARREN OVER MICHAEL BROWN TWEET

Harris and Warren's comments were made last week as Democratic presidential candidates marked the five-year anniversary of the unrest in Ferguson after the controversial shooting of Brown.

In a tweet on Friday, Harris wrote: “Michael Brown’s murder forever changed Ferguson and America. His tragic death sparked a desperately needed conversation and a nationwide movement. We must fight for stronger accountability and racial equity in our justice system.”



Kamala Harris

@KamalaHarris
Michael Brown’s murder forever changed Ferguson and America. His tragic death sparked a desperately needed conversation and a nationwide movement. We must fight for stronger accountability and racial equity in our justice system.

3,102
11:24 AM - Aug 9, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
7,206 people are talking about this
Warren tweeted that “5 years ago Michael Brown was murdered by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. Michael was unarmed yet he was shot 6 times. I stand with activists and organizers who continue the fight for justice for Michael. We must confront systemic racism and police violence head on.”



Elizabeth Warren

@ewarren
5 years ago Michael Brown was murdered by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. Michael was unarmed yet he was shot 6 times. I stand with activists and organizers who continue the fight for justice for Michael. We must confront systemic racism and police violence head on.


37.2K
11:59 AM - Aug 9, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
35.6K people are talking about this



But the fact-checkers said the evidence in the case contradicts the comments by Harris and Warren: Three months after the shooting, a grand jury decided not to indict Wilson. And in March of 2015, a report released by President Barack Obama’s Department of Justice found that Officer Darren Wilson most likely had reason to fear for his life and did not break the law when shooting Brown.


In awarding the pinocchios, the Washington Post’s Kessler wrote: “Harris and Warren have ignored the findings of the Justice Department to accuse Wilson of murder, even though the Justice Department found no credible evidence to support that claim.”

And Factcheck.org pointed out that other Democratic presidential contenders also tweeted on the anniversary of Brown’s death, but didn’t use the word “murdered.” Instead, they noted Brown was “killed” by a police officer.

The August 9, 2014 shooting of the unarmed Brown dominated national headlines five years ago, igniting protests and riots in Ferguson.

Protesters charged that Brown had his hands raised up in the air before he was shot multiple times by Wilson, as Ferguson became the national symbol of racial bias by law enforcement. But while the phrase "Hands up, don't shoot" originated after the shooting, the Justice Department investigation at the time found no evidence that Brown's hands were up.

At the same time, the city’s police department faced allegations of racism and racially biased policing of the community, and the Justice Department said it uncovered a widespread systemic pattern of racial exploitation and profiling of the city’s black residents by the Ferguson Police Department.

Paul Steinhauser is a politics reporter based in New Hampshire.

I really, REALLY hope these women don't get the Democratic nomination.
Their lies about Law enforcement to pander for votes is so disheartening
__________________
The Democrats are not after the truth, they are after the President.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CindyB For This Useful Post:
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:41 PM
lurch907's Avatar
Scholar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska, the greatest place on earth.
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,803
Thanks: 1,049
Thanked 3,303 Times in 1,851 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to lurch907 For This Useful Post:
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:19 PM
Jaaaman's Avatar
Outing liberal stupidity
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: South Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Thanks: 1,405
Thanked 348 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/har...n-was-murdered

I really, REALLY hope these women don't get the Democratic nomination.
Their lies about Law enforcement to pander for votes is so disheartening
They should be ashamed of themselves... but these lying sack of sh*ts have no shame.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaaaman For This Useful Post:
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:55 PM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,353
Thanks: 1,490
Thanked 2,301 Times in 1,835 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/har...n-was-murdered

I really, REALLY hope these women don't get the Democratic nomination.
Their lies about Law enforcement to pander for votes is so disheartening
There remains significant questions related to the Grand Jury hearing in the case. Why did the prosecution, for example, present the unchallenged evidence for the defense to the Grand Jury? A Grand Jury does not have a responsibility to judge the veracity of the evidence and is only supposed to review the evidence from the prosecution. Grand Juries do not make determinations of fact in our criminal justice system. That role and responsibility is for the jury to decide during the adversarial process in the criminal trial.

So why was unchallenged defense testimony presented to the grand jury? The determination by the grand jury to not indict is suspect because of what I'd refer to as prosecutorial errors in presenting evidence for an indictment.

The DOJ does not make determinations on criminal murder charges because those are not typically covered by federal laws. The DOJ's determination was on whether Officer Darren Wilson violated Michael Brown's civil rights, a federal crime, when he shot and killed Brown. As the DOJ statement said, "most likely had reason to fear for his life and did not break the (civil rights) law when shooting Brown."

What I found perplexing is that according to all testimony Michael Brown struggled to keep Officer Wilson from pointing his firearm at Brown. When Wilson fired a shot Brown abandoned that and began to run away. Not walk away, run away. Officer Wilson then left his vehicle before demanding that Brown stop and surrender. How far away was Brown after running for the entire time it took Wilson to get out of his vehicle? Three good steps running would put him at least 10 feet away and six would put him over 20 feet away. He was shot and killed immediately after turning to surrender (or to charge Wilson if you believe the defense). He would still be at a considerable distance, probably 15 or more feet away, and a person 15 or more feet away doesn't represent an imminent threat to an armed person (or police officer). An unarmed person would have to be less than 10 feet away and I don't see that as being the case in the shooting.

Was it murder? Probably not based upon the legal definition and practices employed by law enforcement that shields them from prosecution in almost all cases. At the same time it was unquestionably an unnecessary killing of a black teenage by police.

This relates to other cases of blacks being shot by police. It seems that police have an irrational fear fueled by stereotypes believing that blacks represent an imminent threat when they really don't. The police apparently don't have this same fear when confronting a white suspect because that "violent stereotype" doesn't exist for whites which is why more unarmed blacks are shot than unarmed whites in America.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:53 AM
Jaaaman's Avatar
Outing liberal stupidity
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: South Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Thanks: 1,405
Thanked 348 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD
This relates to other cases of blacks being shot by police. It seems that police have an irrational fear fueled by stereotypes believing that blacks represent an imminent threat when they really don't. The police apparently don't have this same fear when confronting a white suspect because that "violent stereotype" doesn't exist for whites which is why more unarmed blacks are shot than unarmed whites in America.
Our men and women in blue have a very difficult job to do... it's this kind of false rhetoric that makes their jobs even more difficult and dangerous. It's amazing that anyone would even want to do these jobs anymore considering the targets that are put on their back with this kind of vitriol being spewed by elected officials and people with great influence in their communities (especially those that are spokespeople in communities in high crime areas of large cities). My father was a police officer for 20+ years including becoming chief of police of a small town... he dealt with many 'people of color' and the statement above is a complete misrepresentation of the facts.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaaaman For This Useful Post:
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:31 AM
lurch907's Avatar
Scholar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska, the greatest place on earth.
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,803
Thanks: 1,049
Thanked 3,303 Times in 1,851 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
There remains significant questions related to the Grand Jury hearing in the case. Why did the prosecution, for example, present the unchallenged evidence for the defense to the Grand Jury? A Grand Jury does not have a responsibility to judge the veracity of the evidence and is only supposed to review the evidence from the prosecution. Grand Juries do not make determinations of fact in our criminal justice system. That role and responsibility is for the jury to decide during the adversarial process in the criminal trial.

So why was unchallenged defense testimony presented to the grand jury? The determination by the grand jury to not indict is suspect because of what I'd refer to as prosecutorial errors in presenting evidence for an indictment.

The DOJ does not make determinations on criminal murder charges because those are not typically covered by federal laws. The DOJ's determination was on whether Officer Darren Wilson violated Michael Brown's civil rights, a federal crime, when he shot and killed Brown. As the DOJ statement said, "most likely had reason to fear for his life and did not break the (civil rights) law when shooting Brown."

What I found perplexing is that according to all testimony Michael Brown struggled to keep Officer Wilson from pointing his firearm at Brown. When Wilson fired a shot Brown abandoned that and began to run away. Not walk away, run away. Officer Wilson then left his vehicle before demanding that Brown stop and surrender. How far away was Brown after running for the entire time it took Wilson to get out of his vehicle? Three good steps running would put him at least 10 feet away and six would put him over 20 feet away. He was shot and killed immediately after turning to surrender (or to charge Wilson if you believe the defense). He would still be at a considerable distance, probably 15 or more feet away, and a person 15 or more feet away doesn't represent an imminent threat to an armed person (or police officer). An unarmed person would have to be less than 10 feet away and I don't see that as being the case in the shooting.

Was it murder? Probably not based upon the legal definition and practices employed by law enforcement that shields them from prosecution in almost all cases. At the same time it was unquestionably an unnecessary killing of a black teenage by police.

This relates to other cases of blacks being shot by police. It seems that police have an irrational fear fueled by stereotypes believing that blacks represent an imminent threat when they really don't. The police apparently don't have this same fear when confronting a white suspect because that "violent stereotype" doesn't exist for whites which is why more unarmed blacks are shot than unarmed whites in America.
You know, typically if some is going to make accusations they provide a link to something resembling actual evidence. But opinions stated as fact, baseless accusations, and misdirection seem to be more your style.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to lurch907 For This Useful Post:
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:39 AM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 17,478
Thanks: 10,818
Thanked 11,390 Times in 6,793 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
There remains significant questions related to the Grand Jury hearing in the case. Why did the prosecution, for example, present the unchallenged evidence for the defense to the Grand Jury? A Grand Jury does not have a responsibility to judge the veracity of the evidence and is only supposed to review the evidence from the prosecution. Grand Juries do not make determinations of fact in our criminal justice system. That role and responsibility is for the jury to decide during the adversarial process in the criminal trial.

So why was unchallenged defense testimony presented to the grand jury? The determination by the grand jury to not indict is suspect because of what I'd refer to as prosecutorial errors in presenting evidence for an indictment.

The DOJ does not make determinations on criminal murder charges because those are not typically covered by federal laws. The DOJ's determination was on whether Officer Darren Wilson violated Michael Brown's civil rights, a federal crime, when he shot and killed Brown. As the DOJ statement said, "most likely had reason to fear for his life and did not break the (civil rights) law when shooting Brown."

What I found perplexing is that according to all testimony Michael Brown struggled to keep Officer Wilson from pointing his firearm at Brown. When Wilson fired a shot Brown abandoned that and began to run away. Not walk away, run away. Officer Wilson then left his vehicle before demanding that Brown stop and surrender. How far away was Brown after running for the entire time it took Wilson to get out of his vehicle? Three good steps running would put him at least 10 feet away and six would put him over 20 feet away. He was shot and killed immediately after turning to surrender (or to charge Wilson if you believe the defense). He would still be at a considerable distance, probably 15 or more feet away, and a person 15 or more feet away doesn't represent an imminent threat to an armed person (or police officer). An unarmed person would have to be less than 10 feet away and I don't see that as being the case in the shooting.

Was it murder? Probably not based upon the legal definition and practices employed by law enforcement that shields them from prosecution in almost all cases. At the same time it was unquestionably an unnecessary killing of a black teenage by police.

This relates to other cases of blacks being shot by police. It seems that police have an irrational fear fueled by stereotypes believing that blacks represent an imminent threat when they really don't. The police apparently don't have this same fear when confronting a white suspect because that "violent stereotype" doesn't exist for whites which is why more unarmed blacks are shot than unarmed whites in America.
The comment is a complete fantasy divorced from the facts of the event.

Officer Wilson stopped Michael Brown as he was walking down the middle of a street after he assaulted and robbed the owner of a local convenience store. There is video of Brown commiting this crime.

Michael Brown continued his rampage of assault by attacking officer Wilson as he sat in his car. Unprovoked, Brown struck Wilson twice in the face as he attempted another assault and robbery targeting the officer's gun. This recounting of events is supported by forensic evidence.

Brown turning and charging the officer is supported by eyewitness testimony. Given Brown's assaults on the store owner and the officer there was a reasonable fear of harm to the officer or others. Sorry officer Wilson didn't have a tape measure to satisfy your arbitrary declaration of a 10 foot rule.

Prosecutors are officers of the court obligated to present exculpatory evidence if deemed credible. In this case the prosecutor allowed an open grand jury hearing with more than 50 people testifying. No doubt the prosecutor realized he didn't have a case but political pressure brought on by race hucksters like Al Sharpton and Obama's DOJ forced a spectacle.

Remember what happened in Florida when the prosecutor declined to bring charges against George Zimmerman for using deadly force in self defense? Political pressure forced appointment of a special prosecutor who pursued a case without evidence resulting in an acquittal. The prosecutor in Ferguson elected to use the grand jury to expose the bogus charges of murder sparing the community a lengthy trial on obviously false charges.
__________________
What is a 30 something year old single man with a rock in one hand and a Honduran flag in the other?

An asylum seeker.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:11 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,353
Thanks: 1,490
Thanked 2,301 Times in 1,835 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaaman View Post
Our men and women in blue have a very difficult job to do... it's this kind of false rhetoric that makes their jobs even more difficult and dangerous. It's amazing that anyone would even want to do these jobs anymore considering the targets that are put on their back with this kind of vitriol being spewed by elected officials and people with great influence in their communities (especially those that are spokespeople in communities in high crime areas of large cities). My father was a police officer for 20+ years including becoming chief of police of a small town... he dealt with many 'people of color' and the statement above is a complete misrepresentation of the facts.
We agree that law enforcement has a very difficult job to do but the rhetoric is not false. Based upon stereotypes black men are generally believed to be more violent than white men. This stereotype is based upon violent crime statistics but the problem is that statistics cannot be applied to the individual. The person may be prone to violence or not prone to violence but they can't be "35%" more prone to violence. People are individuals and not percentages.

If the law enforcement officer assumes black men are more prone to violence based upon violent crime statistics and then confronts a black man that officer will be prejudiced in their actions. Their finger will be a little bit tighter on the trigger of their firearm and an action that would go unnoticed by a white suspect can cause that finger to pull the trigger.

It's human nature to respond to a perceived threat even if the threat isn't real. I'm not condemning law enforcement personnel for being human but what this does address is that training is required to overcome the prejudice where a perceived threat from black men exists. This also has to be done without the officer going to far in the opposite direction which would cause them to overlook a true sign of danger.

We can see evidence of this prejudice by law enforcement because it doesn't matter if the officer is black or white. That same stereotype of violence by black men based upon violent crime statistics results in the same response by both black and white law enforcement officers.

This isn't just my opinion of course. This is the opinion of most law enforcement agencies around the country that are trying to deal with the stereotyping of black men being violent based upon violent crime statistics instead of dealing with each suspect identically and without prejudice or bias.

Law enforcement is a very tough job and it's tougher still to remain unbiased in the performance of that job. It's not about condemning those officers that fail because they're human but instead it's about commending those officers that succeed in overcoming racial bias.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:03 PM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,353
Thanks: 1,490
Thanked 2,301 Times in 1,835 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The comment is a complete fantasy divorced from the facts of the event.

Officer Wilson stopped Michael Brown as he was walking down the middle of a street after he assaulted and robbed the owner of a local convenience store. There is video of Brown commiting this crime.
Officer Wilson was unaware of the fact that Michael Brown involvement at the convenience store.

The video shows Brown shoplifting a box of cigars and then simply moving the store clerk out of the way when the clerk tried to block his exit. It wasn't like Brown used extreme force or even struck the clerk. Brown just moved him out of the way. "Assault and Robbery" are gross exaggerations related to the offense of shoplifting and moving the clerk out of the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Michael Brown continued his rampage of assault by attacking officer Wilson as he sat in his car. Unprovoked, Brown struck Wilson twice in the face as he attempted another assault and robbery targeting the officer's gun. This recounting of events is supported by forensic evidence.
Defense testimony that was never subjected to cross examination. We do know some fact though. Brown did come over to Wilson's car when requested to do so. While in the car Wilson drew his handgun and attempted to threaten Brown by pointing it at him. Brown did physically resist Wilson's attempt to point the pistol at Brown but there's no evidence that Brown attempted to take the firearm from Wilson. Why did Wilson pull his firearm and attempt to target Michael Brown is a key question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Brown turning and charging the officer is supported by eyewitness testimony. Given Brown's assaults on the store owner and the officer there was a reasonable fear of harm to the officer or others. Sorry officer Wilson didn't have a tape measure to satisfy your arbitrary declaration of a 10 foot rule.
Once again no cross examination because this wasn't a criminal trial. Eye witnesses stated Brown did not raise is hands. They did not define what the term "charging" meant of how far away or how many steps Brown might have taken. Officer Wilson admitted from the beginning that didn't know about Brown's involvement in the convenience store incident so he had no fears based upon that.

Back to the point. How far away was Brown from Wilson after taking off in a dead run when he left Wilson in the car? It doesn't take a tape measure to know that at distance of 15, 20, 25 feet or more away does not represent an imminent threat and the threat must be imminent before deadly force can be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Prosecutors are officers of the court obligated to present exculpatory evidence if deemed credible. In this case the prosecutor allowed an open grand jury hearing with more than 50 people testifying. No doubt the prosecutor realized he didn't have a case but political pressure brought on by race hucksters like Al Sharpton and Obama's DOJ forced a spectacle.
Defense testimony is not exculpatory evidence.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:19 PM
cnredd's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Gender: Male
Posts: 54,802
Thanks: 2,194
Thanked 34,854 Times in 20,061 Posts
Default Re: Harris, Warren fact-checked on claim Michael Brown was murdered

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Officer Wilson was unaware of the fact that Michael Brown involvement at the convenience store.
A fact that is irrelevant...

Wilson DID KNOW that a robbery had taken place within his vicinity, and Wilson WAS on the lookout for two individuals...

Quote:
At 11:47 a.m., Wilson responded to a call about a baby with breathing problems and drove to Glenark Drive, east of Canfield Drive.[30] About three minutes later and several blocks away, Brown was recorded on camera stealing a box of Swisher cigars and forcefully shoving a Ferguson Market clerk. Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, left the market at about 11:54 a.m. At 11:53, a police dispatcher reported "stealing in progress" at the Ferguson Market and described the suspect as a black male wearing a white T-shirt running toward QuikTrip. The suspect was reported as having stolen a box of Swisher cigars. At 11:57, the dispatch described the suspect as wearing a red St. Louis Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and that he was accompanied by another male. At 12:00 p.m., Wilson reported he was back in service and radioed units 25 and 22 to ask if they needed his assistance in searching for the suspects. Seven seconds later, an unidentified officer said the suspects had disappeared. Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[Unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."
__________________
"You get the respect that you give" - cnredd
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to cnredd For This Useful Post:
Reply

Tags
brown, claim, factchecked, harris, michael, murdered, warren, was

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0