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News & Current Events Discuss There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census at the General Forum; Originally Posted by mr wonder well as a matter of history the census has been a tool of the gov't ...

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Old 07-04-2019, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
well as a matter of history the census has been a tool of the gov't to deal with "the other".
Even it's 1st use was to help count slaves as 1/3rd person.
After that it's been used by some to target nearly every other group in various forms and fashions. Irish and Chinese immigrants, Latinos, Blacks, Native Americans, etc..
I believe the census info was used to round up Japanese in the U.S. in WW2 to put them in U.S. concentration camps.

( some history,
https://www.history.com/news/census-...sy-citizenship
we shouldn't erase history right?, and we shouldn't repeat some of it.)

And this new question seems to be another layer of that type of thing.
Also, in my thinking, it's another place where the U.S. gov't is offically injecting a "your papers please" gov't agent into our system of "freedom".
There is a difference, IMO, between what the census was used for centuries ago, and what it is used for now. It's whole purpose has changed, therefore we need to view it under the current purpose. I don't see it being used as a method to target illegals, per se. By indicating if one is in the US legitimately, then they do have a right to vote, and righteously be a part of how delegates are allocated, etc. Those that are not here, should not be counted - which, unfortunately is something the Democrats have strong hope for, the inflate the number of people to increase the number of delegates.

As to 'papers please', if one is pulled over, or stopped at a check point, involved in an accident, purchasing alcohol or tobacco, cashing a check, writing a check, using a credit card in some places, all require the person to provide identification. That doesn't work as a threat anymore. I don't like it, but I understand the necessity.
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Old 07-04-2019, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
There is a difference, IMO, between what the census was used for centuries ago, and what it is used for now.
are you sure? and WW2 was centuries ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
It's whole purpose has changed, therefore we need to view it under the current purpose. I don't see it being used as a method to target illegals, per se.
...
you may not, but that doesn't mean some in the gov't don't have that and other intent for it's use.
And it Seems clear to me the gov't knows more than it should already about citizens and non citizens.
via it's phone, internet and us mail spying programs.
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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
As to 'papers please', if one is pulled over, or stopped at a check point, involved in an accident, purchasing alcohol or tobacco, cashing a check, writing a check, using a credit card in some places, all require the person to provide identification. That doesn't work as a threat anymore. I don't like it, but I understand the necessity.
Sadly too many of us are at ease with "your papers please" and even believe it's a "necessity".
The "boiling frog" analogy is more apt than ever these days.
The lost of freedoms is not even felt. While people will still proclaim loudly how free we are.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
are you sure? and WW2 was centuries ago?

...
you may not, but that doesn't mean some in the gov't don't have that and other intent for it's use.
And it Seems clear to me the gov't knows more than it should already about citizens and non citizens.
via it's phone, internet and us mail spying programs.

Sadly too many of us are at ease with "your papers please" and even believe it's a "necessity".
The "boiling frog" analogy is more apt than ever these days.
The lost of freedoms is not even felt. While people will still proclaim loudly how free we are.
No, WW ii did not happen centuries ago, but some do claim the census was used to identify Japanese Americans. You have to wonder about that, since during that time, locating people was not the lark it is today.

There are certain things I understand the necessity of. I don't like it, but because people continually violate laws, some method of preventing certain things from getting into minor's hands, or validating that you are who you say you are, is necessary.

You continue to have your freedoms, by not participating in the activities that require ID. Of course, the government is doing it's damnedest to eliminate cash, so every transaction can be tracked, dissected, and used against you.

I could spend hours dissecting each and every infringement against freedoms and the individual, but to what point? I'd be locked up as the lunatic fringe.

But if people need to identify if they are a Citizen or not, it will and does have an impact on the governing body of this country. And THAT, we should have concern for.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
No, WW ii did not happen centuries ago, but some do claim the census was used to identify Japanese Americans. You have to wonder about that, since during that time, locating people was not the lark it is today.
"The Census Bureau turned over confidential information, including names and addresses, to help the U.S. government identify individual Japanese Americans during World War II, according to government documents released by two scholars Friday.
The documents validate long-held suspicions among Japanese Americans that information about them collected under confidentiality pledges was released to the government.
In 2000, the Census Bureau acknowledged and apologized for its role in sharing aggregate data with the U.S. military to help relocate Japanese Americans from the West Coast to inland camps after Japan's 1941 Pearl Harbor attack....."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...s31-story.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
There are certain things I understand the necessity of. I don't like it, but because people continually violate laws, some method of preventing certain things from getting into minor's hands, or validating that you are who you say you are, is necessary.
You continue to have your freedoms, by not participating in the activities that require ID. Of course, the government is doing it's damnedest to eliminate cash, so every transaction can be tracked, dissected, and used against you.
I could spend hours dissecting each and every infringement against freedoms and the individual, but to what point? I'd be locked up as the lunatic fringe.
But if people need to identify if they are a Citizen or not, it will and does have an impact on the governing body of this country. And THAT, we should have concern for.
Don't you think it's kind of sad that we realize that gov't infringement on our privacy and freedom is so crazy that you'd think that YOU'RE the one that would be locked up as crazy for pointing it out to the gov't. and neighbors.

fact is the census has been misused,
and the freedom/privacy sky is falling but we're crazy to mention it or complain.

But trusting the gov't by adding more layers on the census invading people's privacy makes us safer?
Sorry, i don't see how that follows logically.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
well as a matter of history the census has been a tool of the gov't to deal with "the other".
Even it's 1st use was to help count slaves as 1/3rd person.
After that it's been used by some to target nearly every other group in various forms and fashions. Irish and Chinese immigrants, Latinos, Blacks, Native Americans, etc..
I believe the census info was used to round up Japanese in the U.S. in WW2 to put them in U.S. concentration camps.

( some history,
https://www.history.com/news/census-...sy-citizenship
we shouldn't erase history right?, and we shouldn't repeat some of it.)

And this new question seems to be another layer of that type of thing.
Also, in my thinking, it's another place where the U.S. gov't is offically injecting a "your papers please" gov't agent into our system of "freedom".
At the time of the first census slaves were counted as 3/5 of free people per the Constitution. It wasn't something cooked up for the census to under count blacks.

Abuse of the census demographic data by the FDR administration is no reason to discontinue gathering the data.

The objection to bringing back a question about citizenship on the census is pure partisan politics on the part of Democrats. Regularizing living in the US illegally is the goal. A more accurate count of illegal aliens makes it less likely the public can be persuaded to go along with blanket amnesty creating a new permanent Democrat majority out of a new permanent underclass.

It goes to show how distorted our political environment has become when asking about citizenship is condemned because it might offend people living here illegally.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
At the time of the first census slaves were counted as 3/5 of free people per the Constitution. It wasn't something cooked up for the census to under count blacks.
You're right, 3/5th.
But the census was part and parcel of the constitutional gov't, and the number of slaves were used as a political tool, by north and south.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Abuse of the census demographic data by the FDR administration is no reason to discontinue gathering the data.
the knowledge of past abuses should be warning about current and future abuse.
it's not a point that should be dismissed lightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The objection to bringing back a question about citizenship on the census is pure partisan politics on the part of Democrats. Regularizing living in the US illegally is the goal. A more accurate count of illegal aliens makes it less likely the public can be persuaded to go along with blanket amnesty creating a new permanent Democrat majority out of a new permanent underclass.

It goes to show how distorted our political environment has become when asking about citizenship is condemned because it might offend people living here illegally.
...bringing back a question about citizenship on the census is pure partisan politics on the part of... Republicans as well AZ.
That's part of the point, the census has been and is being used as a political tool.

As far as the number of "illegal aliens" that is something that should be gathered. but IMO the census shouldn't be the tool to do it.
each state should look into and deal with it.
and the feds should help deal with it at the southern and NORTHERN boarders.

And i have to mention again I've met Illegal aliens from Britain and non Latino countries, but many on the right don't seem to hot and bothered with them
or want those people with Non-american accents to produce papers or get out of the country.

Again the census has been used over and over to deal with what politicians and national 'purist' of the day considered "other" people.
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: There will not be a question asking about citizenship on the 2020 census

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
You're right, 3/5th.
But the census was part and parcel of the constitutional gov't, and the number of slaves were used as a political tool, by north and south.


the knowledge of past abuses should be warning about current and future abuse.
it's not a point that should be dismissed lightly.



...bringing back a question about citizenship on the census is pure partisan politics on the part of... Republicans as well AZ.
That's part of the point, the census has been and is being used as a political tool.

As far as the number of "illegal aliens" that is something that should be gathered. but IMO the census shouldn't be the tool to do it.
each state should look into and deal with it.
and the feds should help deal with it at the southern and NORTHERN boarders.

And i have to mention again I've met Illegal aliens from Britain and non Latino countries, but many on the right don't seem to hot and bothered with them
or want those people with Non-american accents to produce papers or get out of the country.

Again the census has been used over and over to deal with what politicians and national 'purist' of the day considered "other" people.
The Constitution requires the Federal government to conduct a census every 10 years. All manner of demographic information is gathered above a simple count. But the number of noncitizens some of whom are living here illegally is "political".

There are tens of thousands of people living in the US with orders of deportation rendered against them. Trying to find how many illegals live here doesn't increase the likelihood of deportation. Democrats don't want the public to know how many there are so the People will not demand the law be enforced.

Please explain how so-called sanctuary states like California are going to be induced to count the number of illegal aliens living in their jurisdiction. They are not. With a sympathetic mother may I judiciary determined to rewrite laws to suit their pleasure there is no way it will get done, but that's the point isn't it.

In case you didn't notice, English, Swedish, Russians, and so forth have accents. We don't get to choose who is illegally crossing our Southern border. If Democrats have their way it's going to be no border, no wall, no USA at all.
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