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News & Current Events Discuss Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb? at the General Forum; Originally Posted by GetAClue To the part bolded by me, uh not really. https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...st-inspection/ The agreement gave Iran enough time ...

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Old 03-09-2019, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
To the part bolded by me, uh not really.



https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...st-inspection/

The agreement gave Iran enough time to stall on site investigations that would allow them to remove any/all evidence of violations before inspectors could arrive on site to inspect anything. This was essentially a game of cat and mouse.
So how many weeks do the Iranians have now before we inspect ANYthing?
seems like more than 2.
and that if Trump the great negotiator he claims to be then he could go back to the table and Renegotiate those parts of the deal.
He says he's done that type of thing before.
Now we have NOTHING. we inspect nothing.

look many on the right act as if Iran is among our worst enemies and somehow if we don't deal with them America will fall some how.
Seem hyperbolic to me but OK whatever. they are an enemy.
they want to kill us all or something "death to America" is their national motto.
So Ok, seem like it might be a realistic standard, with a foe like that, to maybe begin by getting a foot in the door, and then a leg and then get all the way in.
rather than demand ALL or NOTHING deals all at once.
If they hate us SO much why would they do that?
And if we aren't going to simply Nuke them and make them comply.
Are we going drive whole population into poverty and starvation via sanctions to make them love us and obey?
I'm not sure why some folks are SO against the Iranian "bad deal" other than the fact that Obama did it.
Seems to me some folk had Obama Derangement Syndrome just as some now have Trump Derangement Syndrome.

there's NO deal that will be made that will change the Iranian national motto "death to America" and even if the Iranian leadership DID claim they now liked America, i doubt many on the right in the U.S. would believe them and would... rightly so... still want to inspect for nukes in various way.

As i said the Iran deal was not great but it was better than nothing and GOOD diplomats BUILD on even small entree. And don't pretend that getting an enemy to let you into their house to check every room but not the bathrooms Tuesday -Friday is NOT good enough. And demand all or nothing.
I mean c'mon, YOU'RE IN the HOUSE. when you walk by the bathroom peak in, or ask the kids whats going on. Saying you won't go in AT ALL unless you see those freakin' bathrooms ANYtime you wanna! sounds frankly stupid to me. they are an enemy. USE the entree you have.
is that Crazy thinking on my part?

Add to that the reports made about the inspections in Iran
..."inside two curved glass towers on the outskirts of this elegant capital, analysts pore over satellite imagery and tests of environmental samples collected from nuclear sites in Iran.
Two thousand miles away, at Iran's main uranium enrichment complex near the city of Natanz, a small team of international inspectors studies information transmitted around the clock by surveillance cameras, online monitors and fiber-optic seals on nuclear equipment.
The International Atomic Energy Agency describes the transcontinental monitoring program it operates as the toughest and most technologically advanced inspections regime put in place to prevent a country from developing an atomic bomb."

....

Current and former IAEA officials describe an inspections regime that is far more intrusive than what existed before Iran and the so-called P5+1 — the United States, Britain, France, China and Russia, plus Germany — began implementing the agreement in January 2016.
"It provides for the strictest IAEA verification and monitoring to date anywhere," said Tariq Rauf, who led the agency's verification and security policy coordination office until 2011.
Iran used to bar inspectors from certain Western countries and would occasionally deny visas to IAEA personnel investigating the possible military dimensions of its nuclear program. Now Iran issues long-term, multiple-entry visas to inspectors. Diplomats briefed on the program say that six to 12 agency personnel are in Iran every day, some based at a small working space provided by authorities at Natanz.
Inspectors have daily access to Natanz and Fordow, a former enrichment site built under a mountain outside the holy city of Qom, Rauf said. Two-thirds of the more than 15,000 uranium-enriching centrifuges once installed at Natanz have been removed since the agreement. Nearly all the centrifuges at Fordow were taken offline or placed in storage, leaving about 300 to produce isotopes for medical purposes.
The remaining equipment at both sites is under constant surveillance, reducing the need for in-person inspections, officials said. An old system involving home movie cameras — modified to start and stop in order to provide months of footage — has been replaced by high-speed color cameras with fisheye lenses that the IAEA says has helped produce a 90% increase in images.
The agency has installed an online monitor that instantly measures uranium enrichment in gas flowing out of the centrifuges at Natanz, a process that used to take upward of three weeks because samples had to be shipped to Austria for analysis.
....
Etc...
https://www.latimes.com/world/middle...017-story.html
was it perfect? no... but now we got nothing. Is glass half full or quarter full something to work with?
So I don't get it, sorry. We're not kids, it's a dream to think that Iran or the M.E. is ever going to LOVE America or become democratic (especially if we keep overthrowing elections and leaders) So i just don't get scraping the deal becasue we didn't get everything we ever wanted from a country that hates us.
seriously?
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Last edited by mr wonder; 03-09-2019 at 12:35 PM..
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Old 03-09-2019, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
So how many weeks do the Iranians have now before we inspect ANYthing? ...
Now we have NOTHING. we inspect nothing.
I would suggest to the Iranian leadership--quite seriously--that they have just two possibilities: either (1) allow the US to conduct anytime/anywhere inspections--without harassment or intimidation--or (2) expect a military response from the US (no, NOT boots on the ground; non-nuclear missiles would do just fine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
[S]eem like it might be a realistic standard, with a foe like that, to maybe begin by getting a foot in the door, and then a leg and then get all the way in.
rather than demand ALL or NOTHING deals all at once.
This seems to imply that if only the US were to get "a foot in the door"--on Iran's terms--it could later conduct anytime/anywhere inspections.

Is that really what you believe?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I mean c'mon, YOU'RE IN the HOUSE. when you walk by the bathroom peak in, or ask the kids whats going on. Saying you won't go in AT ALL unless you see those freakin' bathrooms ANYtime you wanna! sounds frankly stupid to me. they are an enemy. USE the entree you have.
I would suggest that this is a poor analogy.

If the Iranian leadership were to take us on the tour that it prefers, how, exactly, would American inspectors "peak [sic] in"?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
was it perfect? no... but now we got nothing.
Well, this is not exactly correct.

Now we have the full knowledge that we cannot know what Iran may be doing.

And that is far better than a mere delusion.
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Old 03-09-2019, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I would suggest to the Iranian leadership--quite seriously--that they have just two possibilities: either (1) allow the US to conduct anytime/anywhere inspections--without harassment or intimidation--or (2) expect a military response from the US (no, NOT boots on the ground; non-nuclear missiles would do just fine).
So you suggest that an enemy should willing allow the US to conduct anytime/anywhere inspections--without harassment or intimidatio.
OR ELSE you'd commit aggressive Preemptive war?

got any constitutional backing for that action?
And isn't that what Hitler did? just sayin', not very American. (leaving W Bush out of the picture at least)

Plus pragmatically speaking, how do you know that would work since you don't know where to bomb. wouldn't you have to destroy the whole country ...just to be sure? thoose hidden nukes could be anywhere waitin' to kill us all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
This seems to imply that if only the US were to get "a foot in the door"--on Iran's terms--it could later conduct anytime/anywhere inspections.
Is that really what you believe?
I don't believe that ANY country will give us anytime/anywhere inspections, unless we make it into a new State of the U.S. and even then the govener might not the feds into some areas without hindrance..
I think anytime/anywhere inspections are fantasy... that only Santa Claus could provide. An unrealistic and counter productive goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I would suggest that this is a poor analogy.
If the Iranian leadership were to take us on the tour that it prefers, how, exactly, would American inspectors "peak [sic] in"?
you've heard of spies, drone devices, long range cameras, making friends with locals who can carry device where you can't go. Getting "lost" on the tour. to name a few off the top of my head.
not to mention that not everything in Iran was on a tour schedule directed by them, please read the previous article i posted. And others that aren't all negative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Well, this is not exactly correct.
Now we have the full knowledge that we cannot know what Iran may be doing.
And that is far better than a mere delusion.
And the delusion that they are about to kill us all with tons of nukes?

But again it's no delusion to know that ALL of the nuke information and parts that you HAVE seen is NOT being used for weapons.
At that point you can still Fret over the areas and potential nuke material that you have not seen or found or suspect might be somewhere ELSE in Iran. at least you know where it's NOT.
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Old 03-09-2019, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I would suggest to the Iranian leadership--quite seriously--that they have just two possibilities: either (1) allow the US to conduct anytime/anywhere inspections--without harassment or intimidation--or (2) expect a military response from the US (no, NOT boots on the ground; non-nuclear missiles would do just fine).
Sadly i've come to realize that constitutional prohibitions and war crime warnings have no effect on some folks on the right when it comes to what they consider "national security"
but i have to say this quote came to mind as i read your post.

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Old 03-09-2019, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
So how many weeks do the Iranians have now before we inspect ANYthing?
seems like more than 2.
and that if Trump the great negotiator he claims to be then he could go back to the table and Renegotiate those parts of the deal.
He says he's done that type of thing before.
Now we have NOTHING. we inspect nothing.
Inspecting only what they let us inspect is useless. And giving them pallets of cash for that "privilege" was the height of stupidity.

There was no deal between the US and Iran. There was a deal between Obama and air as the Iranians never signed the deal and the congress never had a chance to ratify it.
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Old 03-10-2019, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
So you suggest that an enemy should willing allow the US to conduct anytime/anywhere inspections--without harassment or intimidatio.
OR ELSE you'd commit aggressive Preemptive war?
The war would not be preemptive. Rather, it would be a punitive strike, in nature.

And the adjective "aggressive" reveals a great deal about your views here. (It is hardly a neutral description.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
And isn't that what Hitler did?
It is a rather old axion: anytime one feels the need to drag Adolf Hitler into the debate, one has already lost it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Plus pragmatically speaking, how do you know that would work since you don't know where to bomb. wouldn't you have to destroy the whole country ...just to be sure?
We probably could not get those nukes.

But we could certainly decapitate Iran's "leadership"--such as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I don't believe that ANY country will give us anytime/anywhere inspections, unless we make it into a new State of the U.S. and even then the govener might not the feds into some areas without hindrance..
I think anytime/anywhere inspections are fantasy... that only Santa Claus could provide. An unrealistic and counter productive goal.
Any country with nothing to hide will surely give us full access--which is to say, anytime, anywhere we wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
you've heard of spies, drone devices, long range cameras, making friends with locals who can carry device where you can't go. Getting "lost" on the tour. to name a few off the top of my head.
Do you seriously imagine that these would be just as effective as anytime/anywhere inspections?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
And the delusion that they are about to kill us all with tons of nukes?
From Wikipedia:

"The United States has argued that Iran's concealment of efforts to develop sensitive nuclear technology is prima facie evidence of Iran's intention to develop nuclear weapons, or at a minimum to develop a latent nuclear weapons capability."

I suppose you are on the other side here...
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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The war would not be preemptive. Rather, it would be a punitive strike, in nature.
as if another nation is a child and if they don't do what we want, we have a right to punish them? seriously?
sorry I was under the impression that all nations have some equal standing as sovereign. i didn't know the US had the right to PUNISH other nations by indiscriminate bombing that declare have as gone astray.
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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
And the adjective "aggressive" reveals a great deal about your views here. (It is hardly a neutral description.)
when someone attacks another with bombs without provocation or attack from the other party by definition that's an aggressive act.
Geneva convention ...written by us after WWII... spells it out exactly as that.

If a SUSPECT husband doesn't trust his wife and he suspects that she's has bought a gun, so he Punitively beats the living crap out of her. in just society he is arrested as an AGGRESSOR. it's not even a question. It would be dishonest to attempt to frame it as a "neutral" event. even though i'm sure the guys desperate lawyer would try it in court. and the guys loving mamma might believe that his attack on the daughter in law she never liked was justified. But neutral observers would see it for what it is.


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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is a rather old axion: anytime one feels the need to drag Adolf Hitler into the debate, one has already lost it...
not that old really.
But see the Eisenhower quote.
and if the actions proposed match the major things he's known for.
unprovoked invasions of other countries under BS grievances. (the application here) and the holocaust, then the comparison still holds.
even if some would prefer to dismiss it out of hand.

the other old saying "Never Again" can't even be used it we aren't allowed make ANY comparisons to Hitler by default.


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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Any country with nothing to hide will surely give us full access--which is to say, anytime, anywhere we wish.
So should we let the Iranians inspect all of our military facilities anywhere anytime? How about Mexico, or the Chinese? of the Russians? Canada maybe?
we have nothing to hide either... right pj?

also should the cops in the U.S. be able to go into any home at anytime and inspect anywhere anytime becasue HONEST people have nothing to hide?

I'm not sure how that concept ever gets traction in the minds of some people on the right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Do you seriously imagine that these would be just as effective as anytime/anywhere inspections?
of course not but it's realistic, compared to the fantasy level of inspection.
that level was ONLY ever obtained after we defeated Iraq in a BS war.
and we Never found the tons or WMDs "suspected" to be there. Maybe that should be lesson to us. maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
From Wikipedia:

"The United States has argued that Iran's concealment of efforts to develop sensitive nuclear technology is prima facie evidence of Iran's intention to develop nuclear weapons, or at a minimum to develop a latent nuclear weapons capability."

I suppose you are on the other side here...
I'm SURE they'd like to have nukes that's not even the question.
the question is how do we inspect to see exactly what they have, to a reasonable level.
You say all or NOTHING or bomb the living Crap out of them.
I say build on a solid crack in the door look at all you can, in broaden the search more and more and as best you can make peace over time.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 03-11-2019 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Is it better or worse than selling 20% of our Uranium to the Russians like Hillary and Barack did?
Lol, I thought you guys don't believe whistle blowers and even try to prosecute them now.
None of the uranium from the Uranium One purchase has ever gone to Russia. Russia has it's own vast uranium reserves and doesn't import uranium.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Any country with nothing to hide will surely give us full access--which is to say, anytime, anywhere we wish.
Under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty the inspections are performed by the IAEA, an independent watchdog group. The use of the IAEA is to prevent political spying by countries under the pretext of nuclear inspections.

A country with nothing to hide would allow the IAEA to inspect all of it's nuclear related activities with the exception of the authorized nuclear weapon nations that have limited IAEA inspections based upon "Applications of Safeguard" agreements between those nations and the IAEA.

No country would allow another country to inspect their nuclear activities because of the unrelated opportunity for political spying that would result. The IAEA, as an international body of scientists and experts, prevents that type of political spying which is why it's been assigned the inspection role.

Iran is and has been in full compliance with PCPOA based upon IAEA inspections.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Saudis Want a U.S. Nuclear Deal. Can They Be Trusted Not to Build a Bomb?

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty the inspections are performed by the IAEA, an independent watchdog group. The use of the IAEA is to prevent political spying by countries under the pretext of nuclear inspections.

A country with nothing to hide would allow the IAEA to inspect all of it's nuclear related activities with the exception of the authorized nuclear weapon nations that have limited IAEA inspections based upon "Applications of Safeguard" agreements between those nations and the IAEA.

No country would allow another country to inspect their nuclear activities because of the unrelated opportunity for political spying that would result. The IAEA, as an international body of scientists and experts, prevents that type of political spying which is why it's been assigned the inspection role.

Iran is and has been in full compliance with PCPOA based upon IAEA inspections.
An inspection regime that limits inspections to sites agreeable to the theocracy with a generous appeals process and little likelihood of sanctions reimposition for defiance. In addition the sham agreement does nothing to restrain missile development, curtail Iran's support of international terrorism or encourage the recognition of human rights by the theocracy. Despite the so-called agreement being inadequate in promoting nuclear nonproliferation or restraining the dictatorial theocracy from pursuing there imperial ambitions.
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