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News & Current Events Discuss House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power and m at the General Forum; Originally Posted by FrancSevin I believe you are making the same assumption as did Ms. Hillary. She also lost the ...

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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I believe you are making the same assumption as did Ms. Hillary. She also lost the contest. Trump played by the rules, made no assumptions, did the hard work, and bested her.

You would change the rules. Sorry but that won't change the outcome of 2016.

We are a federated nation. Our President needs to represent all of our 50 states and voting territories as a whole. Not the most populated Metropolitan centers. Madison's solution to the historical Achilles heel of democracies has prevented the inevitable decline into mob rule of ours for over 228 years. I say let it be.
Very well said.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
so you are for less ability for citizens to rule themselves?
nice
If you understood the reason for the House and the Senate as it was established by the founders, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements.

But, just to humor you, here it is. When the Constitution as written and ratified, the House of Representatives was considered the "peoples house", in that it was the voice of the voter as the voters directly elected to Representatives.

Also, the Senate was formed as the "states voice" in the Federal government. The original intent was that the state legislatures would select two representatives to speak for the state in our Federal Government thereby allowing the legislature the ability to appoint and remove those that did not adequately represent their state in the Senate.

And there was a reason that the Senate is comprised of exactly 2 members from each state regardless of population or size. It is so that each state has an equal voice in the Senate unlike the House whose representatives are dictated by population.

The 17th Amendment basically wiped out the influence that the States had in our government. Since the passing of the 17th Amendment, the power of the Federal Government has grown to heights that would have struck fear into the founders. This has come at the expense of the power of the states and to their voice in our Federal Government.

It has also led to the hyper partisanship that we see today. When Senators are more worried about their next election than the interest of their states, they play into the political atmosphere of DC. Chuck Schumer has more influence in Democratic Senators votes than their own states do.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:32 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
I've said before, but I will say it again. The DNC has made a pact that they will never, EVER accept a Republican POTUS as legitimate.
Why keep saying something that isn't true. The fact that Trump violated the law to become president doesn't imply he's not the president in the opinion of the DNC. The American voters, through the Electoral College, elected Donald Trump to be our president and the DNC fully accepts that fact. He is the legitimate president of the United States, period.

That doesn't imply he should remain the president of the United States. No one, including President Trump, is above the law and any president can be removed from office for "high crimes and misdemeanors" that are defined by the House of Representatives (not necessarily statutory laws) under the provisions in the Constitution.

If President Trump wasn't legitimate then he could be removed from office without impeachment because he wouldn't be the president where impeachment is required.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Why keep saying something that isn't true.
Why don't you tell us as you seem to be the one doing it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
If you understood the reason for the House and the Senate as it was established by the founders, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements.

But, just to humor you, here it is. When the Constitution as written and ratified, the House of Representatives was considered the "peoples house", in that it was the voice of the voter as the voters directly elected to Representatives.

Also, the Senate was formed as the "states voice" in the Federal government. The original intent was that the state legislatures would select two representatives to speak for the state in our Federal Government thereby allowing the legislature the ability to appoint and remove those that did not adequately represent their state in the Senate.

And there was a reason that the Senate is comprised of exactly 2 members from each state regardless of population or size. It is so that each state has an equal voice in the Senate unlike the House whose representatives are dictated by population.

The 17th Amendment basically wiped out the influence that the States had in our government.
This is fundamentally true but filling of the office of the president has also changed with the 12th Amendment. Prior to the 12th Amendment the members of the Electoral College were selected/appointed by each state, not the president. As Hamilton noted in Federalist 68 the purpose of the Electoral College was to prevent special interests (e.g. political parties) and the people (that are unqualified) from choosing who would be the chief executive officer of the nation, the President.

The best analogy is the selection of corporate officers in business where the Board of Directors, not the workers, select the best individuals they can find to be the executives controlling the daily operations of the business.

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Since the passing of the 17th Amendment, the power of the Federal Government has grown to heights that would have struck fear into the founders. This has come at the expense of the power of the states and to their voice in our Federal Government.
I find no historical evidence to support this claim. The founders did not believe in a minimalistic federal government when addressing limited government. They believed in "necessary" government where the federal government had the power to protect the "unalienable" (natural) rights of the person. This is expressed as one of the First Principles that the Constitution was based upon.

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The First Principle of limited government means that the protection of unalienable rights is the legitimate purpose and limit of government requires the government to be strong enough to fulfill its purpose yet limited to that purpose.
America’s First Principles

Some like to pull words out of context from Thomas Paine in their arguments for minimalistic government but reading the statement in context provides a better understanding.

Quote:
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...k285lBaFw/edit

Paine isn't arguing for a small ineffective government that can't protect our rights. He's arguing for "necessary" government that is large enough and powerful enough to protect our rights.

Our government isn't large or powerful enough because our unalienable rights are being violated extensively. I can link every department in our government to a violation of our unalienable rights and they're not doing enough to protect our rights from being violated by members of our society.

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
It has also led to the hyper partisanship that we see today. When Senators are more worried about their next election than the interest of their states, they play into the political atmosphere of DC. Chuck Schumer has more influence in Democratic Senators votes than their own states do.
The American people, overall, are not hyper partisan. Political parties create hyper partisanship when extremists take control of the party. Today the Republican Party is controlled by extremists and a moderate Republican can't exist. A moderate Republican will be "primaried" by the extremists and will never make it to the general election. The Democratic Party has managed to evade this pitfall somehow. There isn't the extremist element and the best indication of that is, according to recent reporting, for the first time in it's history over half of Democrats are not identifying themselves as liberals. The right accuses all Democrats of being progressive liberals while only half of Democrats describe themselves as being liberals at all.

The Left has pretty much stayed where it's at over the years while the right has continuously moved further and further right become more extreme every year. By today's radical Trump Republican standard an extreme "Tea Party" Republican from 2010 is a centralist.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Why don't you tell us as you seem to be the one doing it.
I've never been a Democrat but as a progressive liberal that believes in the Constitution I've found nothing illegitimate about President Trump being elected. He's a con man and a criminal but he was properly elected by the votes of the people that didn't care about whether he was a con man or a criminal when they elected him.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
You have it exactly backwards. If we eliminate the electoral college, the need for recounts of very close results in a given state become irrelevant. If one candidate is up nationally by a million votes, it won’t matter who won the vote in a given state.
Thanks for inadvertently making my point about the pitfalls of using a popular election, plebiscite, to select our President. Who cares about contesting results in the little states, they don't matter, all that counts is the population centers. With the

With enough lawyers and slow moving elections supervisor the outcome of the election could be delayed for years. In the meantime the country would be without a President. Or worse, we'd have direct rule by Congress.

Never mind that Democrats are lawsuit happy constantly running to hand picked Federal district court judges for national injunctions rather than use the political process.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

Going back to the OP,, Changing the pardon powers of the president and removing the Electoral college are two elements of the Constitution. You know, that document that keeps getting in their way. No surprise then that the Progressives want to eliminate them.

It will take amendments to the constitution to get either of these goals accomplished. It must therefore come before the population for approval. I currently still have faith that WE THE PEOPLE will object.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Thanks for inadvertently making my point about the pitfalls of using a popular election, plebiscite, to select our President. Who cares about contesting results in the little states, they don't matter, all that counts is the population centers. With the

With enough lawyers and slow moving elections supervisor the outcome of the election could be delayed for years. In the meantime the country would be without a President. Or worse, we'd have direct rule by Congress.

Never mind that Democrats are lawsuit happy constantly running to hand picked Federal district court judges for national injunctions rather than use the political process.
You are once again, missing the point. A national popular vote election actually reduces the chances that mistakes, or even fraud, will materially affect the result. If the national vote margin is well above a million votes (as it typically is) the need for local recounts or challenges become moot. We've only had one election since 1900 decided by less than 500,000 votes. The Florida 2000 fiasco never happens if we don't need to determine a winner in every state.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: House Dems move to eliminate Electoral College, limit presidential pardon power a

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
You are once again, missing the point. A national popular vote election actually reduces the chances that mistakes, or even fraud, will materially affect the result. If the national vote margin is well above a million votes (as it typically is) the need for local recounts or challenges become moot. We've only had one election since 1900 decided by less than 500,000 votes. The Florida 2000 fiasco never happens if we don't need to determine a winner in every state.
It is really unsurprising that a liberal would wish to change the Constitution, and go with the popular vote. After all, in two of the latest five presidential elections, the Democrat has won the popular vote--yet lost the electoral vote.

I am guessing that your principles are very flexible; that you can make a "principled" argument to support any position that would enhance Democrats' chances.
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