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News & Current Events Discuss Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees at the General Forum; Originally Posted by cnredd Nope... That was a PRIVATE citizen case where the Dems were trying to block their PRIVATE ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2018, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Nope...

That was a PRIVATE citizen case where the Dems were trying to block their PRIVATE movie...
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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I read it applies to <<money>> amounts etc whoever gives them
maybe I'm thinking about clout

https://www.watchdog.org/national/la...aa5a4006d.html
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Good question, regarding 99 percent of your posts. Do people really think some worthless pile of crap working for the VA will not utilize a lawyer provided by his "union", to save his ass?
Due to service related disabilities and medical conditions I've been a patient of VA hospitals and clinics for years and I've yet to find anyone at the VA that isn't highly dedicated to providing the best service possible. Yes, there have been scandals related to accounting practices because the VA doesn't have the staff or facilities to treat the significant increase in patients due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as more Vietnam era veterans using the VA medical services. The "accountants" are of course wrong to cover up the delayed services that result from a lack of federal funding but that doesn't imply they're worthless pile of crap.

The Phoenix VA, for example, should have been accurately reporting that it couldn't provide services in a timely manner because it had too many patients and not enough doctors. By covering up the fact that it couldn't provide services necessary it didn't have an argument for more funding. It hurt itself because the employees wanted to show they were competent when, in fact, due to underfunding the hospital couldn't provide the services they were being measured by.

The local VA clinic I use is supposed to have three doctors on staff but it's never had more than two and it ran for about a year with only one because it's underfunded. It's supposed to have one full time mental health professional but we've never had one because of a lack of funding. The VA hospital sends one to our clinic one day a week.

Except for anecdotal cases you're not going to find incompetence with any of the union represented workers at the VA. You might find it with management but the people doing the work are highly dedicated and competent in their jobs.

If we want to improve services at our VA hospitals and clinics then Congress needs to provide more funding - double the current funding would be a good start - instead of outsourcing the work to private practices that don't provide any better service than the VA. I opted for outsourced services for a minor surgery once. It ultimately took six months but I didn't know that when I choose to have a private practice perform the surgery. I could have had the same surgery in four months if I would have let the VA do it. Outsourcing the medical services is the wrong way to address America's veterans and all veteran organizations I'm aware of oppose the outsourcing of medical services.

I'd suggest you choose another example as opposed to offending a combat veteran that's used VA medical services in two different states over the last 20 years. And when you pick another example you should provide some actual statistical information as opposed to unsupported allegations based upon your assumptions that are probably wrong.

Oh, and by the way, the unions will not provide legal representation to a worker that has a documented history of incompetence in their work. As mentioned I dealt with unions as management at Lockheed and the unions pick their battles. They will address and defend workers that are terminated without a history of incompetence but not someone where management has been working with the union to try and resolve the problem of incompetence by a worker. What I found is by working with the union as a manager in cases of poor performance was that together we were able to improve the performance to an acceptable level. In fact we actually improved the performance to well above average because it was a team effort.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Originally Posted by loboloco View Post
I have actually worked for a union. The union will shield any worker from management as long as it possibly can. Whether that individual is worth it or not isn't even a question the union bothers to ask. A perfect point is the NYC teachers. Many removed from class for lack of performance and even criminal acts, but they can't be fired because the union protects them.
How many NYC teachers have committed criminal acts that would relate to their jobs (e.g. typically victimless crimes wouldn't apply to a teaching position but child molestation would) and have retained their job?

Lack of performance in a classroom can be caused by several reasons foremost of all of those reasons is too many students per teacher. Nationwide we have under-performance in K-12 education and the average classroom size is 22 students per teacher. That's about double the number of students per teacher recommended by experts in education.

The second reason for under-performance is a poor course outline and teaching plan. In most places I'm aware of we expect the teacher to be both the teacher and the course developer but teaching and course development are two different professions. Why isn't K-12 education divided into course development that addressed the daily lesson plan that's prepared by professional course developers and then delivery of the daily lesson plan that the teacher provides? Oh, I know, that costs money and spending money on public education is opposed by elected Republicans at the state government level that control taxes and spending (or at least that's the case in Arizona where currently I live and in Washington state where I used to live).
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
How many NYC teachers have committed criminal acts that would relate to their jobs (e.g. typically victimless crimes wouldn't apply to a teaching position but child molestation would) and have retained their job?

Lack of performance in a classroom can be caused by several reasons foremost of all of those reasons is too many students per teacher. Nationwide we have under-performance in K-12 education and the average classroom size is 22 students per teacher. That's about double the number of students per teacher recommended by experts in education.

The second reason for under-performance is a poor course outline and teaching plan. In most places I'm aware of we expect the teacher to be both the teacher and the course developer but teaching and course development are two different professions. Why isn't K-12 education divided into course development that addressed the daily lesson plan that's prepared by professional course developers and then delivery of the daily lesson plan that the teacher provides? Oh, I know, that costs money and spending money on public education is opposed by elected Republicans at the state government level that control taxes and spending (or at least that's the case in Arizona where currently I live and in Washington state where I used to live).
More excuses to defend keeping incompetents and even criminals on a payroll. You really are a piece of work. You should quit trying to claim you are a progressive anything and just admit you want to destroy anything worthwhile by government fiat.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

I'm not pro or anti unions per se but instead I recognize that there has to be an opposing force to the downward pressure of market forces on the "price" paid for labor. Unlike the downward pressure of market forces on commercial goods and services where prices are reduced based upon reducing the costs that doesn't apply to labor. There's no relationship between the "price for labor" and the "cost to provide the labor" in the market.

In the 1950's and 1960's the unions had enough economic force to increase wages based upon increased productivity. Unfortunately some of that force came in the form of illegal coercion by organized crime. Organized crime was removed from the unions during the 1960's and the last of the union contracts where organized crime existed expired by 1973. With that the power of the unions could no longer maintain compensation increases based upon the increase production. When the "illegal" coercion was removed the government should have provided increase lawful powers to the unions so that they would counteract the downward forces of the market. Instead Republican administrations, often citing organized crime involvement with the unions that no longer existed, imposed greater and greater restrictions on the power of the unions. This anti-union agenda of the Republicans cost the workers of America in the pocket book because as productivity soared but compensation stagnated. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

I'm an advocate for a balance of power between the labor force and the capitalists that own enterprise. We had that balance once but it's been gone since the 1970's when the unions lost their powers to negotiate contracts based upon increased productivity. Why Republicans don't want that balance of power and instead seek to enrich the capitalists at the expense of the worker remains a puzzlement to me.

Just like in the 1970's when Republicans continued to make false claims about organized crime involvement in the unions, a thing of the past, we have Republicans today basically fabricating stories about unions that, at best, are supported by a few anecdotal cases.

The recent teacher walkouts that happened around the country weren't strikes by teacher's unions seeking new contracts. It was teachers, both union members and non-union members, addressing the state governments where the unions had been unable to negotiate even reasonable compensation for teachers and were the teachers were being denied the financial resources required just to do their job.

The weakness of the unions has never been more evident than it was this last year and yet Republicans want to further reduce the power of the unions that's already costing the American workers at least 40% of what they should be earning in a capitalistic economy where there's a balance of economic power between labor and the enterprise. You can only give the wealthy so much and we've already given them far more than they deserve under a capitalistic model that's based upon success for both enterprise and labor.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2018, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
How many NYC teachers have committed criminal acts that would relate to their jobs (e.g. typically victimless crimes wouldn't apply to a teaching position but child molestation would) and have retained their job?

Lack of performance in a classroom can be caused by several reasons foremost of all of those reasons is too many students per teacher. Nationwide we have under-performance in K-12 education and the average classroom size is 22 students per teacher. That's about double the number of students per teacher recommended by experts in education.

The second reason for under-performance is a poor course outline and teaching plan. In most places I'm aware of we expect the teacher to be both the teacher and the course developer but teaching and course development are two different professions. Why isn't K-12 education divided into course development that addressed the daily lesson plan that's prepared by professional course developers and then delivery of the daily lesson plan that the teacher provides? Oh, I know, that costs money and spending money on public education is opposed by elected Republicans at the state government level that control taxes and spending (or at least that's the case in Arizona where currently I live and in Washington state where I used to live).
Shiva, suggesting that the only reason that a teacher should be fired is job related criminal actions is why the school system is in its current state.

The rest of your post is excuses why the teacher could not possibly be at fault.

Nonsense. Teaching and course developing are not separate professions. I'd also bet that if there is a unique course developer profession they too will belong to the same NEA. Which incidentally is not an education association. It's a union.

There's little if any indication that spending more money or reducing class size improves the outcome of the system. Both do however tend to increase teacher pay for less work, which is why the teachers unions favor both.

Paying an incompetent teacher more does not make that teacher more competent. OHTH the best teacher in the US will get the same pay raise as that incompetent teacher.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2018, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court: Unions Can't Force Govt Workers to Pay Fees

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I'd suggest you choose another example as opposed to offending a combat veteran that's used VA medical services in two different states over the last 20 years. And when you pick another example you should provide some actual statistical information as opposed to unsupported allegations based upon your assumptions that are probably wrong.
You throw that label around very freely here, "combat veteran". I say nothing about what you are, other than it is my opinion that, say 90 to 99 percent of your posts look like skewed statistics reporting. My opinion. You may say what you wish about my posts, if it makes it better.
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