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News & Current Events Discuss Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency at the General Forum; "Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly ...

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Old 05-22-2018, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

"Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."
-- George Washington,
charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife,Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."

Let's appeal to our BEST and OUR humanity and not assume we have to drop to their level, even briefly.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

....U.S. Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:
"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004, regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques."


The C.I.A.’s 1963 interrogation manual stated:
Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex ‘admissions’ that take still longer to disprove.


Former CIA Agent siad,
"Many governments that have routinely tortured to obtain information have abandoned the practice when they discovered that other approaches actually worked better for extracting information. Israel prohibited torturing Palestinian terrorist suspects in 1999. Even the German Gestapo stopped torturing French resistance captives when it determined that treating prisoners well actually produced more and better intelligence."


the sad thing to me is that the simply moral argument doesn't phase people.
'Good people', even people that are Christians blow off the idea of "doing the right thing simply becasue it's right." And seem upset at being ask to.
Seems it's not that odd that the inquisition and it's tortures (and Counter movements that used torture) lasted for hundreds of years.
Just tell people they are in some danger. Doesn't even have to be realistically eminent, or a serious threat. Terrorist have no Army, no Navies, no planes. There's more chance of being struck by lighting than being killed by a terrorist. But somehow torture is A-OK, or compelling, up to even torturing your own mother if the "the boss" says so.

God help us all.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Before 9/11 I had the knee jerk thought that torture was effective if not even though it's evil as well,
But If you were a professional interrogator at that time you would have known better, and known that it was illegal order.


https://youtu.be/OGdNhwFqhyU
https://youtu.be/OGdNhwFqhyU

"Former FBI Interrogator Jack Cloonan talks about the techniques he used while working in the elite Bin Laden unit. "

(BTW some people did resign some did refuse some did whistle blew on those who ... just "followed orders")
And this is where we disagree, kind of. I agree that torture is not effective in that the person being tortured will say almost anything to make it stop. However, I still don't buy that waterboarding is torture. We can disagree on this point and that is fine, but contend that waterboarding is not torture and that there was actionable intelligence that led to the capture of OBL from the waterboarding of KSM.

For every person you cite that disagree's, I could find just as many to support my contention.

So what? People have differing opinions, go figure.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency


the boss says its not torture.
the boss says it should be done.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:08 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post

the boss says its not torture.
the boss says it should be done.
Once again, you are giving an example of something that I never claimed. I agree, torture does not work. However, my OPINION is that waterboarding is not torture. You believe otherwise, that is your OPINION.
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Once again, you are giving an example of something that I never claimed. I agree, torture does not work. However, my OPINION is that waterboarding is not torture. You believe otherwise, that is your OPINION.
(was looking for some other old post and ran across this one ... soo an extremely belated reply.)

Navy SERE trainer Nance
"While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."
Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."

that's his "opinion".


Mancow (radio host) Said he didn't think waterboarding was torture , until he tried it...
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

Conservative atheist Christopher Hicthens said he didn't think waterboarding was torture , until he tried it...
"The conservative writer said he found the treatment terrifying, and was haunted by it for months afterward. Hitchens concluded in the article."
"Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture,"

Navy Seal Jesse Ventura says it's torture

The Head of one military branches SERE training, which prepares military for possible capture. He says waterboarding is torture.


But beyond that U.S. law says it's torture... Until W

In WWII Nazi's and Japanese soldiers where convicted for waterboarding as torture.

-- Despite the claims of many supporters of the CIA’s methods and techniques, torture is not a murky or ill-defined concept. The legal definition of torture to which the U.S. subscribes can be found in the*UN Convention Against Torture:
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."---

Historically
---
Waterboarding has been used as a form of torture since the Middle Ages. Oxford scholar Cecil Roth writes in his book*The Spanish Inquisition:
The water-torture was more ingenious, and more fiendish. The prisoner was fastened almost naked on a sort of trestle with sharp-edged rungs and kept in position with an iron band, his head lower than his feet, and his limbs bound to the side-pieces with agonizing tightness. The mouth was then forced open and a strip of linen inserted into the gullet. Through this, water was poured from a jar (*jarra*), obstructing the throat and nostrils and producing a state of semi-suffocation. The process was repeated time after time, as many as eight*jarras*being applied.

The U.S. military has also always considered waterboarding to be torture. During the U.S. Army Trials of Japanese War Criminals Conducted in Yokohama, Japan,*Yukio Asano was charged*with “Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs.” Among the specifications listed were “beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward.” Asano was convicted of a war crime for waterboarding American prisoners.

--"By claiming that waterboarding is not torture, we are saying that it is*not*a violation of the Geneva Convention. That means that our enemies are legally justified in using this “interrogation” technique on American service members. This fact was recognized by 29 former high-ranking military officers in a*letter sent to Sen. John Warner*about their opposition to the redefinition of the Geneva Convention statutes:
We have abided by this standard in our own conduct for a simple reason: the same standard serves to Protect American servicemen and women when they engage in conflicts covered by Common Article 3. Preserving the integrity of this standard has become increasingly important in recent years when our adversaries often are not nation-states. Congress acted in 1997 to further this goal by criminalizing Violations of Common Article 3 in the War Crimes Act, enabling us to hold accountable those who abuse our captured personnel, no matter the nature of the armed conflict."
Quote:
Retired Judge Advocates General Write To Sen. Leahy Condemning Waterboarding
November 2, 2007

The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman United States Senate Washington, DC 20510

Dear Chairman Leahy,

In the course of the Senate Judiciary Committeeís consideration of President Bushís nominee for the post of Attorney General, there has been much discussion, but little clarity, about the legality of ìwaterboardingî under United States and international law. We write because this issue above all demands clarity: Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal.

In 2006 the Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the authority to prosecute terrorists under the war crimes provisions of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. In connection with those hearings the sitting Judge Advocates General of the military services were asked to submit written responses to a series of questions regarding ìthe use of a wet towel and dripping water to induce the misperception of drowning (i.e., waterboarding) . . .î Major General Scott Black, U.S. Army Judge Advocate General, Major General Jack Rives, U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate General, Rear Admiral Bruce MacDonald, U.S. Navy Judge Advocate General, and Brigadier Gen. Kevin Sandkuhler, Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, unanimously and unambiguously agreed that such conduct is inhumane and illegal and would constitute a violation of international law, to include Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

We agree with our active duty colleagues. This is a critically important issue ñ but it is not, and never has been, a complex issue, and even to suggest otherwise does a terrible disservice to this nation. All U.S. Government agencies and personnel, and not just Americaís military forces, must abide by both the spirit and letter of the controlling provisions of international law. Cruelty and torture ñ no less than wanton killing ñ is neither justified nor legal in any circumstance. It is essential to be clear, specific and unambiguous about this fact ñ as in fact we have been throughout Americaís history, at least until the last few years. Abu Ghraib and other notorious examples of detainee abuse have been the product, at least in part, of a self-serving and destructive disregard for the well- established legal principles applicable to this issue. This must end.

The Rule of Law is fundamental to our existence as a civilized nation. The Rule of Law is not a goal which we merely aspire to achieve; it is the floor below which we must not sink. For the Rule of Law to function effectively, however, it must provide actual rules that can be followed. In this instance, the relevant rule ñ the law ñ has long been clear: Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise ñ or even to give credence to such a suggestion ñ represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.

We respectfully urge you to consider these principles in connection with the nomination of Judge Mukasey.

Sincerely,

Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000
Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88"
Seriously, it not just opinion, but by historical, dictionary and legal definition it's torture.

trying to rationalize it otherwise doesn't help our country.
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