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News & Current Events Discuss Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Bat Yeah, torture doesn't work well and is stupid. I'm of the opinion that when it comes ...

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Old 05-19-2018, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by Bat View Post
Yeah, torture doesn't work well and is stupid.
I'm of the opinion that when it comes to war and terrorists death is better than torture.

Kinda like this,
You have x number of prisoners that are terrorists.
Ask the first one what he knows in front of all the others.
If he refuses to cooperate you kill him. In front of all the others.
Move on to the next one and do the same thing.
Keep going until you get answers or they are all dead. No torture.

We should tell all nations that that is how we operate because we don't believe in torture.
And yes, our men and women in the military should be told to expect the same treatment from our enemies.
"WAR" on terror, huh?

Geneva Convention
Convention between the United States of America and other powers, relating to prisoners of war. Signed at Geneva, July 27, 1929; ratification advised by the Senate, January 7, 1932; ratified by the President, January 16, 1932,
.... 2) To all persons belonging to the armed forces of belligerent parties...
"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

"Prisoners of war shall enjoy complete latitude in the exercise of their religious duties, including attendance at the service of their faith, on condition that they comply with the disciplinary routine prescribed by the military authorities."
"

The UN Convention on Torture,
which Ronald Reagan signed and championed.
Article 1.
1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Article 2.
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture...
................
After Bush and crew went "to the dark side", as Chenney put it, the supreme court let them know it WAS in fact illegal to mistreat ANY detainees. That ALL were covered under Geneva and the USMJ. Not to mention the UN treaty, and National laws on prisoner treatment.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006
The Bush administration has agreed to apply the Geneva Conventions to all terrorism suspects in U.S. custody, bowing to the Supreme Court's recent rejection of policies that have imprisoned hundreds for years without trials. The Pentagon announced yesterday that it has called on military officials to adhere to the conventions in dealing with al-Qaeda detainees. The administration also has decided that even prisoners held by the CIA in secret prisons abroad must be treated in accordance with international standards, an interpretation that would prohibit prisoners from being subjected to harsh treatment in interrogations, several U.S. officials said.
So we simply ignore these?
Does the rule of law mean anything? How about being an example to the word? "city on a hill" and all that?
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Last edited by mr wonder; 05-19-2018 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

If you oppose Haspel's nomination you're sexist. Libs have taught us all that. Anytime you're against someone it automatically is due to their sex, race, age, etc.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

@ mr wonder,
I am well aware of the Geneva Convention and the UN's stance on torture. I just happen to disagree with "playing fair" when fighting a war.
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
A CIA professional trained in interrogation techniques would know better.
they've known for centuries torture doesn't work.
They've also known that's it's illegal, EVEN if the President says to do it.

But as far as the LEADER giving the orders or "condoning" it goes. Well,
No soldier or anyone sworn to uphold and defend the constitution has to obey an illegal order. period. is the constitution the highest law or is it the President's word?

Waterboarding has been considered illegal and torture for over 500 years.
AND those professionals within the intel community KNEW that.... even on a pragmatic level... torture is INEFFECTIVE in interrogation.
Even Napoleon Knew this.

Some people in the CIA and other agencies DID refuse to participate. Some whitsle blew the actions becasue they were illegal.
Why weren't they PROMOTED since they knew then, what she claims she's realizes in Hindsight.
You are missing the point. At the time that this happened, waterboarding was NOT considered torture. You can call it torture all you want, but according to the DOJ lawyers at the time, it was NOT torture.

Also, your contention that waterboard has not effective is contrary to what those involved say.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Experience at torture and the cover up of torture Is not what I like to see in a CIA chief.
She should be in jail, along with many others. At the VERY least she should have LOST her job.
Not be placed at the head of the agency.
The fact that she's a woman makes no difference. If a woman is waterboarding you or man you still can't breathe.
The choices she made show POOR, immoral, illegal thinking and general lack of moral judgement.

I'm sorry to see so many willing to not only to give her a PASS but move her to the top of the heap rather than those that chose to RESIGN or whistle blow on torture to maintain "the law" and the moral and legal standards we PREACH to other countries about.

Her appointment just shows the world again that we're hypocrites. And don't really give a d@mn about rules or morals when it comes down to it.
Speak a bit louder, she's trying to adjust the microphone in your room.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

If I remember correctly torture made John McCain sing like a bird. No?
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
You are missing the point. At the time that this happened, waterboarding was NOT considered torture.
You can call it torture all you want, but according to the DOJ lawyers at the time, it was NOT torture.
I say there are only 2 genders, as most the world has for the past several thousand years. Except in the rare cases of hermaphrodites.

For the past 500+ years the "water torture" has been called and known as "torture"

It's the hand full of hand pick lawyers during the Bush Admin that can say all they want that it's not.
As my previous post have pointed out it's been illegal torture in the US for years by domestic law, military law and international treaty.
A few DOJ lawyers can't legally just wave all that away with a few memos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Also, your contention that waterboard has not effective is contrary to what those involved say.
Folks have to justify what they did don't they.
But, still bottom line none of them specifically point to tortu-cough- "enhanced interrogation" as giving them ANY "actionable" intel.
And there are MANY intel professional that report and testified before congress of getting plenty of info WITHOUT it. some just before the "enhanced" methods began. at which point the detainees went dry.

As mentioned Napolean even knew torture was no good for intel.. even WW2 intel people interrogating NAZI knew they got the BEST intel by using carrots. Not sticks. If being "practical" is all that matters.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I say there are only 2 genders, as most the world has for the past several thousand years. Except in the rare cases of hermaphrodites.

For the past 500+ years the "water torture" has been called and known as "torture"

It's the hand full of hand pick lawyers during the Bush Admin that can say all they want that it's not.
As my previous post have pointed out it's been illegal torture in the US for years by domestic law, military law and international treaty.
A few DOJ lawyers can't legally just wave all that away with a few memos.
When the boss says do something and the lawyers tell you that the action they want you to do is legal, you have two choices. You can follow orders or resign from your position. As what they were asking was to make a couple of terrorists uncomfortable and fearful of drowning (but not actually drowning), I would choose to waterboard them also. I don't give 2 craps about some blood thirsty terrorist's feelings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Folks have to justify what they did don't they.
But, still bottom line none of them specifically point to tortu-cough- "enhanced interrogation" as giving them ANY "actionable" intel.
And there are MANY intel professional that report and testified before congress of getting plenty of info WITHOUT it. some just before the "enhanced" methods began. at which point the detainees went dry.

As mentioned Napolean even knew torture was no good for intel.. even WW2 intel people interrogating NAZI knew they got the BEST intel by using carrots. Not sticks. If being "practical" is all that matters.
Those closest to it would disagree.

Waterboarding Works, Says Former Chief CIA In | The Daily Caller
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:14 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
When the boss says do something and the lawyers tell you that the action they want you to do is legal, you have two choices. You can follow orders or resign from your position. As what they were asking was to make a couple of terrorists uncomfortable and fearful of drowning (but not actually drowning), I would choose to waterboard them also. I don't give 2 craps about some blood thirsty terrorist's feelings.
Before 9/11 I had the knee jerk thought that torture was effective if not even though it's evil as well,
But If you were a professional interrogator at that time you would have known better, and known that it was illegal order.


https://youtu.be/OGdNhwFqhyU
https://youtu.be/OGdNhwFqhyU

"Former FBI Interrogator Jack Cloonan talks about the techniques he used while working in the elite Bin Laden unit. "

(BTW some people did resign some did refuse some did whistle blew on those who ... just "followed orders")
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder
Folks have to justify what they did don't they.
But, still bottom line none of them specifically point to tortu-cough- "enhanced interrogation" as giving them ANY "actionable" intel.
And there are MANY intel professional that report and testified before congress of getting plenty of info WITHOUT it. some just before the "enhanced" methods began. at which point the detainees went dry.

As mentioned Napoleon even knew torture was no good for intel.. even WW2 intel people interrogating NAZI knew they got the BEST intel by using carrots. Not sticks. If being "practical" is all that matters.
Those closest to it would disagree.

Waterboarding Works, Says Former Chief CIA In | The Daily Caller
broader survey of people says otherwise.
Leon Panetta former CIA Director in Letter to John McCain
"....Nearly 10 years of intensive intelligence work led the CIA to conclude that Bin Ladin was likely hiding at the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. there was no one “essential and indispensable” key piece of information that led us to this conclusion. Rather, the intelligence picture was developed via painstaking collection and analysis. Multiple streams of intelligence — including from detainees, but also from multiple other sources — led CIA analysts to conclude that Bin Ladin was at this compound. Some of the detainees who provided useful information about the facilitator/courier’s role had been subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. Whether those techniques were the “only timely and effective way” to obtain such information is a matter of debate and cannot be established definitively. What is definitive is that that information was only a part of multiple streams of intelligence that led us to Bin Ladin."

"...Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002. It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting.

In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts. This information was discovered through other intelligence means...."

....In 2011, John Brennan agreed:
White House deputy national security advisor John Brennan Tuesday knocked down the myth that waterboarding provided crucial intelligence that led to the location of Osama bin Laden.
“So we’ve been talking about the different details and methods that lead up to this moment, and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or role in actually getting the information,” MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski told Brennan. “Is that the case?”
“Not to my knowledge,” Brennan explained.
Brennan became director of the CIA.

Likewise, former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld –
who had a big hand in the torture program – stated:“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Senator Lindsey Graham –
a vocal proponent of waterboarding– said: This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work.

Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council.
NYT : “The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” ... “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”

Huffington Post reported:Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, produced a 263-page report in 2009 on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody in the years following 9/11. He too dismissed the idea that the interrogation techniques used at that time were efficacious. “If they had any information under the Bush administration that could have led to bin Laden it would have been terribly neglectful for them not to use it,” Levin noted in an interview on the “Bill Press Show.”
The confirmation of the courier’s significance appears to have come in 2004, from an al Qaeda operative who was not waterboarded: Hassan Ghul.

Dan Froomkin
argued that – rather than helping catch Bin Laden – torture actually delayed by years more effective intelligence-gathering methods which would have resulted in finding Bin Laden:
Defenders of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies have claimed vindication from reports that bin Laden was tracked down in small part due to information received from brutalized detainees some six to eight years ago.
But that sequence of events — even if true — doesn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of torture, these experts say. Rather, it indicates bin Laden could have been caught much earlier had those detainees been interrogated properly.

Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander
“I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden,” said an and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier — information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, “they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us,” Alexander told The Huffington Post.
“We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information,” he said.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...F04G_blog.html
Illegal, domestically, by military law, by international law
AND basically USELESS. As well as being counter productive. Slowing real investigations and Giving the radicals an extra tool to sway many moderate Muslims their way. Proving some of the worse of their accusations.
And compelling our Intel people and Military to do criminal acts.

And of course the bottom line is it's plain immoral and BELOW the standards we should have Christians, Americans and human beings.
Below the standards we profess to believe in.
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