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News & Current Events Discuss Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election at the General Forum; Originally Posted by WallyWager Before we start, the headline is misleading. She was only referring to a poll of Iowa ...

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Old 05-03-2018, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
Before we start, the headline is misleading. She was only referring to a poll of Iowa caucus goers wherein 41% of Dems in Iowa self-described as socialists.
Untrue...

The question was whether her saying she was a capiltalist hurt her in the 2016 election...She only used Iowa as an example...

Quote:
Former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said that she likely lost some support in the 2016 election for answering that she was a capitalist because so many in the Democratic party identified as socialist.

Clinton was speaking at the Shared Value Leadership Summit in New York City Wednesday when she was asked by Fortune president Alan Murray if being a capitalist hurt her in the 2016 election.

“You may be the only presidential candidate since World War II that actually had to stand up and say I am a capitalist,” Murray asked, “and you did, uh, did it hurt you?”

“Probably,”
Clinton answered to some laughter from the audience.
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Old 05-03-2018, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

So is she saying that to many democrats are like ...old Russians??!
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I don't know, 41% of Iowa voters are self-described socialists? Sure, that is only 1 state, but that is a HUGE number. I am curious as to what percentage of Democrats in the nation are either self-described socialists or not opposed to Socialism. My guess is that it is a much higher number than most think. Bernie got a lot of votes. That in itself is a scary proposition.
I think the problem is that the term "socialism" in this country is used far more broadly than what it actually curtails. Seems like you're either a capitalist or a socialist, which is also lumped in with communist. Bernie Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist, and that ideology actually is in opposition to Marxist-Leninist socialist as it rejects the authoritarian Soviet economic model and highly centralized economy.

And yet his policies are closer to what you'd see in Scandinavian counties which are Nordic Social Democracies, and that economic model does believe in a free market, but with a very comprehensive welfare state and strong labor laws and unions. They don't replace capitalism like socialists want to do.

I find that if anyone digs even a little they'll discover that economic views are as diverse and complicated as political ones. We're not bound to overly broad notions of isms.

Oh, and I voted for Bernie, and am damn proud of that.

So, boo.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I don't know, 41% of Iowa voters are self-described socialists? Sure, that is only 1 state, but that is a HUGE number. I am curious as to what percentage of Democrats in the nation are either self-described socialists or not opposed to Socialism. My guess is that it is a much higher number than most think. Bernie got a lot of votes. That in itself is a scary proposition.
I think the problem is that the term "socialism" in this country is used far more broadly than what it actually curtails. Seems like you're either a capitalist or a socialist, which is also lumped in with communist. Bernie Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist, and that ideology actually is in opposition to Marxist-Leninist socialist as it rejects the authoritarian Soviet economic model and highly centralized economy.

And yet his policies are closer to what you'd see in Scandinavian counties which are Nordic Social Democracies, and that economic model does believe in a free market, but with a very comprehensive welfare state and strong labor laws and unions. They don't replace capitalism like socialists want to do.

I find that if anyone digs even a little they'll discover that economic views are as diverse and complicated as political ones. We're not bound to overly broad simplifications of isms.

Oh, and I voted for Bernie, and am damn proud of that.

So, boo.
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
I think the problem is that the term "socialism" in this country is used far more broadly than what it actually curtails. Seems like you're either a capitalist or a socialist, which is also lumped in with communist. Bernie Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist, and that ideology actually is in opposition to Marxist-Leninist socialist as it rejects the authoritarian Soviet economic model and highly centralized economy.

And yet his policies are closer to what you'd see in Scandinavian counties which are Nordic Social Democracies, and that economic model does believe in a free market, but with a very comprehensive welfare state and strong labor laws and unions. They don't replace capitalism like socialists want to do.

I find that if anyone digs even a little they'll discover that economic views are as diverse and complicated as political ones. We're not bound to overly broad simplifications of isms.

Oh, and I voted for Bernie, and am damn proud of that.

So, boo.
That explains a lot.
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Old 05-04-2018, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

Is Wally still tryin' to pretend Pantsuit didn't say what we all saw on video and transcript?

Wally would argue 1+1 isn't 2 if it meant pushin' the lib cause.

She said it. Read/listen to her own words. Not even the biggest partisan like Wally can deny it. It's all there in black and white (and video).
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

Time to repost this...

What Exactly Is A Socialist?

Being a socialist is not a definitive answer, but a range...

The second the government gives one penny to someone who didn't earn it and simply got it because of a "program", then that's TECHNICALLY a socialist move...Even the most stringest of capitalists believe that's fair for certain instances...

It's when that range supercedes the capitalistic view of revenue through economy that this becomes a problem...economic justice and social justice (and wealth redistribution) are socialist ideologies...

In a way, we're all socialists, but ONLY to the technical term...Actual socialists apply to reality, whereas most Americans do not...

Analogy time!!...

You have two baseball players...One of them hits an average of TWO home runs a year...The other hits an average of FOURTY-FIVE home runs a year...

Are they both "home run hitters"?...From a technical sense "yes"...Any person that has EVER hit a home run is...TECHNICALLY...a home run hitter...

But are they both "home run hitters" in the reality-applied and culturally accepted definition?...Not on your life...The second player is DEFINITELY a "home run hitter"...the first one is definitively NOT...

But at the VERY SAME TIME, the guy who averages forty-five home runs a year probably comes up to bat over 450 times a year...which mean the player...considered a perfect example of a "home run hitter"...acually hits home runs less than 10% of the times he's at bat...

...But because he does what he does so much more than the average, that is what makes him a "home run hitter"...

This why Obama is a socialist...he is the biggest home run hitter in terms of economic justice, social justice, and wealth redistribution this country has ever seen...

He doesn't have to be 100%...he just needs to be so much higher than the average American...

His defenders attempt to force the TECHNICAL TERM of being a socialist (100%) on the public and says this proves Obama's not a socialist, but they don't understand that the reality-applied and culturally accepted definition of socialism is the standard (just like asking what defines a "home run hitter"...No absolutes...Just a range)...

No president has ever been 100% non-socialist...If there was, we'd have ZERO programs...As much as Conservative haters want to scream that this is what Republicans want, any reasonable person knows this is a lie...

Conservatives are the "two-home-runs-per-year" players...TECHNICALLY socialist, but, obviously, no where near the average...

Liberals (and Obama as the kingpin) constantly look towards MORE programs...The "forty-five-home-runs-per-year" that they do socialistic isn't even good ENOUGH for their own liking...They won't be happy until they average two-hundred...

Coincidentally, this is also why hardcore socialists get pissed at Obama...Their vision is that he has to hit a home run EVERY SINGLE TIME he's at bat, and anything less means that he's not a true home run hitter (That logic would have Babe Ruth hitting 8,399 home runs...the number of times he came up to the plate)...

So "What exactly is a socialist?" comes with an arbitrary answer...But make no mistake...when it comes to socialism, Obama is a helluva lot closer to Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth than he is to Ozzie Smith and Ichiro Suzuki...
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Old 05-04-2018, 03:46 PM
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Post Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I don't know, 41% of Iowa voters are self-described socialists? Sure, that is only 1 state, but that is a HUGE number. I am curious as to what percentage of Democrats in the nation are either self-described socialists or not opposed to Socialism. My guess is that it is a much higher number than most think. Bernie got a lot of votes. That in itself is a scary proposition.
I think part of the problem is not recognizing that it's actually a spectrum between socialism / capitalism.
Our system has never been purely capitalist. I don't know of any country that is pure socialism.

And stating "self-described" is another key factor. Considering how much of this country screams "socialist!" at existing programs like welfare?
I support a form of welfare but that doesn't make me a socialist.
(By that standard, I also wouldn't describe myself as socialist, but obviously some others would.)
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I think part of the problem is not recognizing that it's actually a spectrum between socialism / capitalism.
Our system has never been purely capitalist. I don't know of any country that is pure socialism.

And stating "self-described" is another key factor. Considering how much of this country screams "socialist!" at existing programs like welfare?
I support a form of welfare but that doesn't make me a socialist.
(By that standard, I also wouldn't describe myself as socialist, but obviously some others would.)
I think you make a valid point that people that claim to lean socialist, may not be thinking of socialism as you or I would.

However, I personally feel that while there are most likely quite a few that may not be die in the wool socialists in that number, the chances are that there are still a very large number of people in this country that see socialism as a solution to their problems without understanding the consequences of such a system.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: Hillary Clinton says Democrats are so socialist it hurt her in the election

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I don't know, 41% of Iowa voters are self-described socialists?
Well, according to the poll of Iowa caucus-goers, 41 percent of Democrats in Iowa describe themselves as socialists.

That is about seven out of every 17...
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