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News & Current Events Discuss European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Surly You guys are just damn near crazy. You know how many babies and others have died ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2017, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You guys are just damn near crazy. You know how many babies and others have died here over the years without getting experimental drugs? And probably for good reason. The RW going silly over UHC being skeered...
The point is that the parents have raised the money, but the court won't let them bring their child to the US for help. This is about this issue, not about any other children. I'm neither RW nor "skeered." I'm just disgusted that the parents aren't being allowed to use their own money to take their son for help. That is inexcusable.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

The argument against assisting "Baby Charlie" boils down to this: His "quality of life," supposedly, would just be insufficient to fight for his life. The conclusion, therefore, is that we must just let him die.

Money is really not a consideration here; roughly 1.5 million dollars have been raised for the matter.

But socialized medicine demands that others--Sarah Palin was once laughed at by the Elite for describing them as "Death Panels"--make these-life-or death decisions. There is simply no room for the parents' preferences here.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

You cant just buy experimental drugs anywhere. Geeze. But hey, rage on.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Is this Liberalism run amok?


More like Liberalism run amok by those in power, as these are the real ones from this sickness call Liberalism..
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
The point is that the parents have raised the money, but the court won't let them bring their child to the US for help. This is about this issue, not about any other children. I'm neither RW nor "skeered." I'm just disgusted that the parents aren't being allowed to use their own money to take their son for help. That is inexcusable.
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The argument against assisting "Baby Charlie" boils down to this: His "quality of life," supposedly, would just be insufficient to fight for his life. The conclusion, therefore, is that we must just let him die.

Money is really not a consideration here; roughly 1.5 million dollars have been raised for the matter.

But socialized medicine demands that others--Sarah Palin was once laughed at by the Elite for describing them as "Death Panels"--make these-life-or death decisions. There is simply no room for the parents' preferences here.
Exactly.
at least 2 question on the table here
WHO has authority over children's welfare when parties disagree on what BEST, the STATE or the PARENTS?
And also,
Who gets to determine what is or isn't legit medical treatment? the STATE or the individual in consultation with their Dr..?

When it comes to ABORTION some on the left argue that the STATE should STAY OUT of the relationship between DRs and "WOMEN bodies".(the Pro-life counter to that is that starts with it's not JUST her body...)
But the principle the "Pro-Choice" view tries to apply is correct. The STATE should NOT have any ultimate say over people's attempts ....to Treat or Cure their bodies or to Treat or Cure their Children.

Unless there's extremely compelling evidence that treatments do in fact cause more harm than good.

And with so many of the disclaimers on LEGAL Pharmaceuticals today saying thing like "Use might cause internal Bleeding, Brain damage, liver damage, organ failure, Blindness, lung collapse, diarrhea.... or DEATH!"
Seems to me the bar is already pretty LOW as to what's ACCEPTABLE as medical risk.

"experimental" and "alternative" treatments should have very few roadblocks from the State. And the State should have the burden of the proof to show extreme likelihood of serious harm, not the patient or the patient's family to show high degrees of effectiveness.
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Old 07-15-2017, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

Also on the medical marijuana issue many on the left are AGAINST the state controlling people's treatment options.
MEDICAL freedom is a right. It was Almost written in as a part of the bill of rights.
But the founders understood it as "Parts of the rights retained by the people" Since it was NOT an authority granted to government by the Constitution.

the STATE in it's least harmful form is the servant of the people not our masters.

effective medical marijuana usage lands women in Jail in this report. Others effectively use it for their children as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZW8zKpgBpw

Medical rights and parental rights is not really a LEFTWING RIGHTWING debate.
it's an authoritarian state vs a free people issue.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You guys are just damn near crazy. You know how many babies and others have died here over the years without getting experimental drugs? And probably for good reason. The RW going silly over UHC being skeered...
Completely missing the point. This case is about judges decideing the fate of an infant.


Not the medical system, and not the people who have the most invested in the child,,,;THE PARENTS.

In this case they are not even being allowed to try. An Impartial judge, who has no stake in the child has decided to weigh the cost and consequences of the child verse the cost to the state system.

That our FDA may prevent use of an experimental procedure, or medicine, is a whole different matter. The FDA is not weighing the cost benefit but the safety of the experimental medical practice.

You would prefer a different, reckless approach to our safety? That would be crazy.

However, in America, if the experimental medicine was available elsewhere, our government would not prevent the parents, who have only the child's interest at heart, to go elsewhere to get it. That, is done often. And though it often detrimental, ending in failure, Freemen have that right of choice.

A choice not afforded Charlie parents.

Which is not to say they are making a wise decision. This dilemma has no good outcome likely. But when it comes to the Solomon decision, the state should protect it's financial interests yes, but bow out to the parents. At the end of the day, the State may wish to protect it's resources, but should not hold the power of life and death over an innocent.

Which is why I believe the State should not control the provision of medical care.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You cant just buy experimental drugs anywhere. Geeze. But hey, rage on.
What? Did you have drinks early yesterday?

Why is it that you don't you think this couple should be able to bring their baby to America?

You can't just buy experimental drugs anywhere. Geeze Louise.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:31 AM
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Cool Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

'All We Want is to Take Our Baby for Treatment in U.S.A.'...

Parents of Baby Held by UK Hospital: All We Want is to Take Our Baby for Treatment in U.S.A.
July 13, 2017 -- The parents of baby Charlie Gard, who suffers from a rare genetic disorder, said they have never asked the courts, the hospital, or anyone for anything and that all they want is "permisison to go" and allow their son to be treated by specialized doctors in the United States or Italy. But the Great Ormond Street Hospital in London, where little Charlie is on a ventilator, will not allow his parents to take their child to those specialists.
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Charlie Gard is 11 months old and suffers from a genetic condition that attacks his muscles and internal organs; he is the 17th person in the world diagnosed with the illness, called mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome. Because of the laws under the Britsh National Health Service, Charlie's parents are not allowed to take their son to other doctors unless the hospital doctors give permission. The parents, Christopher Gard and Connie Yates, have asked for permisison since November 2016 but the British hospital has refused.


Christopher Gard, Connie Yates, and their son Charlie Gard.

The Gard family has also battled in several courts to get their son released but the courts ruled against them. Today, July 13, the High Court in London, which previously ruled for the hospital, is reviewing new evidence about the experimental treatment being offered by at least seven mitochondrial DNA depletion experts. Two U.S. hospitals have agreed to accept Cahrlie Gard for treatment, as has the hospital at the Vatican. More than $1.6 million in provate donations has been raised to pay for the treatment. “We are continuing to spend every moment, working around the clock to save our dear baby Charlie," said his parents in a statement. "We’ve been requesting this specialized treatment since November, and never asked the hospital, Courts or anyone for anything – except for the permission to go." "We’ve raised over £1.2 Million [$1.6 million] and have had invitations from specialized Doctors in the U.S. and Italy offer their ground-breaking treatment to us and are confident they can help little Charlie," said Christopher Gard and Connie Yates. "We will continue to make the case for us to seek treatment for Charlie with Doctors that are actually specialized in Mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, and we hope the Judge and the Courts will finally rule in favor of us seeking treatment elsewhere." "We love him more than life itself," they said. "If he’s still fighting, then we’re still fighting.”

One of the pro-life groups helping the Gards in London is Americans United for Life (AUL). Commenting on the case, AUL CEO Catherine Glenn Foster said, “The medical evidence is consistently clear that Charlie deserves a chance at life. There is much misinformation about Charlie’s condition but he shows no signs of being in pain and experts say that alternative treatment has a chance of improving Charlie’s quality of life." "It is unacceptable that Charlie’s parents are being asked to prove that their son’s life is still worth fighting for when it is their right as parents to pursue what they consider best for Charlie," said Foster. “We have letters and invitations from Doctors and specialists from around the world, and medical evidence that shows that Charlie could greatly benefit from this ground-breaking treatment. Charlie’s parents have been seeking this treatment since November – it is now July – time is of the essence.”


Foster further explained there is evidence that with the drug that could be administered to Charlie, there is "up to a 10%, and around 90-100% chance the medicine will cross the blood brain barrier," which is relevant to assessing the claims of brain damage. "This is a chance that Charlie’s parents and many doctors and specialists around the world are willing to take," said Foster. "All we’re asking is that the Judge and the Court give Charlie this chance.” The High Court in London is expected to render its ruling on the new evidence today or Friday, July 14.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...y-treatment-us
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: European Court of Human Rights rules baby must be killed

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You cant just buy experimental drugs anywhere. Geeze. But hey, rage on.
Here is another case where UHC answers to political considerations, not medical science. At no expense to the precious UHC rationing system the parents want to have an experimental drug treatment for their child. Medical science would be advanced even in the likely event the child perishes. But merely allowing someone to violate the bureaucratic boundaries of UHC rationing could encourage others to do the same undermining the God like powers of the UHC officials.
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