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News & Current Events Discuss R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death at the General Forum; Originally Posted by pjohns I don't recall my mentioning Ronald Reagan in this thread, to attempt to bolster my arguments. ...

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Old 02-01-2016, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I don't recall my mentioning Ronald Reagan in this thread, to attempt to bolster my arguments.
no you mentioned the date as if that made a significant difference.


Quote:
To attempt to prove discrimination by simply pointing to the raw numbers of those incarcerated is simplistic in the extreme--and highly unreliable.
If it were just the numbers you'd have a point.
But as the link points out it's not JUST the numbers (did you watch the video) it's the biased focus, policies and habits of policing and the courts that are the major factors.


Quote:
Would you care to elucidate, please?
Stated flat out, After slavery many states and locals began arresting many innocent blacks for various reasons or no reason and keeping them in prison as labor, it's well documented. Especially in many southern prisons systems clearly up into the 1970s. And there are cases (not all) of the same is shown to be going on today. In another thread recently i posted links to police exposing similar practice in their areas over the last 30 years. But somehow many here... on the right dismissed the officers reports OUTRIGHT rather than consider it seriously. This is an example of why the GOP doesn't win friends with minorities. Many seem to work off of DEFAULT assumptions rather than objectively looking at data and even official reports by police and or investigative groups. A defensive knee jerk reaction to any criticism. Assuming that minorities are just making stuff up, that police are making it up, that investigators are making it up. Because the assumption is THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION in the justice system. How do we know? Because many Conservatives and GOP says so and blacks, police and gov'ts reports that say otherwise are liars. that's how. it's the only reason i can see. because the other rebuttals don't account for ALL the facts or just aren't logical.


Quote:
Well, that is certainly your assertion.
Now all that is lacking is the actual proof...
Redlining: Still a thing- Washington Post 2015


Quote:
Another way to put it is this: Republicans do not waste precious (and very limited) resources concentrating on areas that traditionally have gone almost exclusively Democratic...
Well if the GOPs plans are truly superior then it shouldn't be a hard sell.

also here's a place where history comes in. Why is it that pre-1960 blacks leaned more republican than democrat? Was it because the democrats suddenly became wonderful and pure of heart that they switched?
the southern strategy of the republicans played to racist white democrats who switched parties to the GOP.
the GOP decided they would GO AFTER a group that typically were not voting republican. They thought it was worth their precious resources.
At the same time some democrats decided to work for civil rights.. shady LBJ very vocally so... to win minority votes.
those R moves and D moves combo pull minorities from the GOP to the Dems. But I'd liked to think that equal rights to voting, public access, jobs etc passed then is something that TODAY both parties would embrace. SO by that standard TODAY the GOP should have no barrier to winning minority votes.
If they were open to acknowledging certain other issues in an honest way.

And look, as i implied before. IF the parties hadn't started playing RACE politics in the 1st place then the GOP wouldn't be wondering if they needed to court minority and women votes. Democrats are playing to minorities, but it seems to me. if both were honest players race wouldn't be a real issue.
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Old 02-01-2016, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by mlurp View Post
so treedancer did the crap you tried to sell in #1 post come while you were ?

I like how you admit your runners most likely will bottom out quickly.
, ,

Or were looking to share some time with real people and leave those in the stuffed suits and sad sweaters. Leaves me wondering.......




P.S. just what was that Bob Dylan tune you had in mind
MAANNN! I think you just click on the green thingy,the second word in me intro to the OP should take you to the off tune Dylan song written in 1964.Me formitive years
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Old 02-02-2016, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
i'm not sure sure thats the fundamental problem.

folks like Trump, David Duke, Pat Buchanan, republican political Ads that show minorities as the dangerous enemy, the last 50+ years of Republicans blocking and disparaging simply basic civil rights legislation for women and minorities.
FOX news disparaging blacks as thugs Latinos as illegals here to steal jobs etc etc..
SOMEHOW has given many minorities and women the impression that many Republicans aren't really serious about the Christain values of equality, love for all regardless of race, woman's role beside men, empathy, kindness, UNITY of all mankind etc.

On this board even you can see the general views of Republicans about race are mostly negative. And republicans often claim that whites are the real pragmatic victims of racial bias nowadays that need to be defended politically. But somehow none and no political policy has any responsibly or hand for any minority problems today. And to discuss the past is wrong on it's face and race baiting. Also to examine the justice system for racial bias is completely unthinkable and OFF the table.

sort the fundamental questions are broader than the narrow view you want to site.
there a TONS of black churches that from the 60's until now agree with social conservatives on nearly every point but they felt alienate by white republicans in other areas. They aren't looking for welfare just FAIR treatment in getting employment, housing, education and the justice system etc.
all of which Republicans have often acted as if it was already available when it's demonstrably has not been.
the failure to acknowledge those issues help drive people from the republicans to the democrats.

Democratic "solutions" where not what was really needed but at least they had the eyes to acknowledge the problem without being defensive and pretending the issues didn't exist.

I personally know many blacks that like what REPUBLICANS say (before Trump) about America, hard work, success, fairness, opportunity, traditional values, Christian principals, the constitution. But the disconnect comes when they see Republicans dismissing real issues they want to bring forward and republicans regularly pointing out the worst features of the most distressed minority communities with little to ZERO compassion.

please show me where Republicans consider any inner city as part of their community, as part of their America.
they'll claim poverty stricken white Mississippi, but latino or black communities are "the other".

concerning Latinos, again here you have a very socially conservative group. including the immigrants. serious Roman Catholics and Pentecostals. But instead of embracing the hard working conservative minded immigrant spirit they are often demonized by the right as invaders.

It's stupid. the republicans could dwarf the democrats if they embraced all races as "Real Americans". And all communities in America as American communities. rather than playing against races to try to secure a few race based votes. And somehow stay lost in a lie that only White americans REALLY understand and want the "american dream" of a decent job/biz, a safe neighborhood, and a nice home.
Pretty judgemental there aren't you Mr Wonder, broad generalizations like that are ridiculous.

Do YOU consider the "inner city as part of your community" Mr Wonder?

I'm sad to say I'm getting a self-righteous vibe from this post of yours also Mr. Wonder.
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Old 02-02-2016, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
Pretty judgemental there aren't you Mr Wonder, broad generalizations like that are ridiculous.
Do YOU consider the "inner city as part of your community" Mr Wonder?
I'm sad to say I'm getting a self-righteous vibe from this post of yours also Mr. Wonder.
Well I'm going off a few years of listening to republican rhetoric and seeing the policies. And years actually trying to give the benny of the doubt.

But In my observation many (not all) Republicans and conservatives (as a party and media voice) play off minorities in general as "them". Except when a minority agrees on nearly every current conservative talking point. THEN that one is ok.
I can't tell you how may times over the years conservatives have assumed that I'd been influenced by "Al Sharpton" or the "the democrat plantation" on some issue because i didn't agree with the popular conservative line.

And Yes, well the inner City is attached to me by others automatically just because i'm Black. Even though i've never lived in a poor inner city. And yes i personally consider the folks there my "brothers" and "sisters" and part of my America. just as poor Appalachia West VA, and the Latino filled boarder towns of the Arizona. It's all America. and if they have problems then that's an American problem. (Not just a "black problem" a "latino problem" a "democrat problem" or "crime problem")

I'm not trying to be self righteous or anything but it does no good for me to pretend that what i've seen of general Republican words and policies on race issues comes across as very color blind, inclusive and empathic.
I'm not saying it's ALL republicans individually come off or are that way. But as a party and the conservative movement in general (which I've been part of since early moral majority years) carries that vibe, I'm sad to say.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
no you mentioned the date as if that made a significant difference.



If it were just the numbers you'd have a point.
But as the link points out it's not JUST the numbers (did you watch the video) it's the biased focus, policies and habits of policing and the courts that are the major factors.



Stated flat out, After slavery many states and locals began arresting many innocent blacks for various reasons or no reason and keeping them in prison as labor, it's well documented. Especially in many southern prisons systems clearly up into the 1970s. And there are cases (not all) of the same is shown to be going on today. In another thread recently i posted links to police exposing similar practice in their areas over the last 30 years. But somehow many here... on the right dismissed the officers reports OUTRIGHT rather than consider it seriously. This is an example of why the GOP doesn't win friends with minorities. Many seem to work off of DEFAULT assumptions rather than objectively looking at data and even official reports by police and or investigative groups. A defensive knee jerk reaction to any criticism. Assuming that minorities are just making stuff up, that police are making it up, that investigators are making it up. Because the assumption is THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION in the justice system. How do we know? Because many Conservatives and GOP says so and blacks, police and gov'ts reports that say otherwise are liars. that's how. it's the only reason i can see. because the other rebuttals don't account for ALL the facts or just aren't logical.



Redlining: Still a thing- Washington Post 2015



Well if the GOPs plans are truly superior then it shouldn't be a hard sell.

also here's a place where history comes in. Why is it that pre-1960 blacks leaned more republican than democrat? Was it because the democrats suddenly became wonderful and pure of heart that they switched?
the southern strategy of the republicans played to racist white democrats who switched parties to the GOP.
the GOP decided they would GO AFTER a group that typically were not voting republican. They thought it was worth their precious resources.
At the same time some democrats decided to work for civil rights.. shady LBJ very vocally so... to win minority votes.
those R moves and D moves combo pull minorities from the GOP to the Dems. But I'd liked to think that equal rights to voting, public access, jobs etc passed then is something that TODAY both parties would embrace. SO by that standard TODAY the GOP should have no barrier to winning minority votes.
If they were open to acknowledging certain other issues in an honest way.

And look, as i implied before. IF the parties hadn't started playing RACE politics in the 1st place then the GOP wouldn't be wondering if they needed to court minority and women votes. Democrats are playing to minorities, but it seems to me. if both were honest players race wouldn't be a real issue.
The complaint that because the prison population doesnít mirror the general population's racial make up is another of the disportionate impact equals racism myths. Under this theory whenever it is politically useful, variance from the racial quota suggested by the population percentage is selectively attributed to racism when in fact this sort of alignment almost never occurs without government imposed racial quotas. Critics of the prison system's supposed racism never suggest blacks are over represented in the NBA for instance.

If we examine murder as a proxy for all crime because murder is always investigated and prosecuted where enough evidence can be collected, we find that blacks are "over represented" as perpetrators and victims. Bringing black prison population of those convicted of murder into alignment with population racial quotas would require denying justice to black victims, something racial agitators routinely deny.

The linked article on red lining gives an example of the HUD forcing a bank into a settlement without an admission of guilt. HUD enforces the law prohibiting red lining, the bank reaches an agreement based on allegations of wrongdoing but somehow this proves red lining is still widespread.

The so-called southern strategy where racists migrated in mass from the Democrat to the Republican party is another myth created by the party of slavery and segregation.
Quote:
Itís true that a Democratic president, Lyndon Johnson, shepherded the 1964 Civil Rights Act to passage. But who voted for it? Eighty percent of Republicans in the House voted aye as against 61 percent of Democrats. In the Senate, 82 percent of Republicans favored the law, but only 69 percent of Democrats. Among the Democrats voting nay were Albert Gore Sr., Robert Byrd and J. William Fulbright.
The myth of a GOP ?Southern strategy? | Chicago Sun-Times

Life long segregation supporter LBJ shocked his Democrat allies with his sudden reversal on civil rights but it wasn't done out of altruism, it was used to create a new coalition of loyal Democrat voters to counter the Kennedy coalition who despised LBJ.

Well known Democrat racists who stayed with the party after the so-called exodus to the Republicans required by the southern strategy continue to influence the party today. Bill Clinton, mentored by J William Fulbright, waxed eloquent in praise of Klan recruiter Robert Byrd's accomplishments at his funeral while dismissing his KKK membership as something he just needed to do to get elected. Of course Clinton neglected to mention Byrd's attempt to filibuster the 1964 civil rights act with support from leading Democrats.

As with so many issues, Democrats wish to portray a false dilemma of choice between 2 extremes, racism as pandemic or a complete denial of racism. Naturally anyone who doubts the existence of pademic racism which can only be cured by increased Federal control over outcomes is Republican denier of racism. There is no middle ground where racial discrimination is recognized and delt with in a reasoned way. So desperate are the Democrats to hold on to the minority constituency no reasoned discussion is allowed.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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The complaint that because the prison population doesn’t mirror the general population's racial make up is another of the disportionate impact equals racism myths. Under this theory whenever it is politically useful, variance from the racial quota suggested by the population percentage is selectively attributed to racism when in fact this sort of alignment almost never occurs without government imposed racial quotas. Critics of the prison system's supposed racism never suggest blacks are over represented in the NBA for instance.

If we examine murder as a proxy for all crime because murder is always investigated and prosecuted where enough evidence can be collected, we find that blacks are "over represented" as perpetrators and victims. Bringing black prison population of those convicted of murder into alignment with population racial quotas would require denying justice to black victims, something racial agitators routinely deny.

The linked article on red lining gives an example of the HUD forcing a bank into a settlement without an admission of guilt. HUD enforces the law prohibiting red lining, the bank reaches an agreement based on allegations of wrongdoing but somehow this proves red lining is still widespread.

The so-called southern strategy where racists migrated in mass from the Democrat to the Republican party is another myth created by the party of slavery and segregation.


The myth of a GOP ?Southern strategy? | Chicago Sun-Times

Life long segregation supporter LBJ shocked his Democrat allies with his sudden reversal on civil rights but it wasn't done out of altruism, it was used to create a new coalition of loyal Democrat voters to counter the Kennedy coalition who despised LBJ.

Well known Democrat racists who stayed with the party after the so-called exodus to the Republicans required by the southern strategy continue to influence the party today. Bill Clinton, mentored by J William Fulbright, waxed eloquent in praise of Klan recruiter Robert Byrd's accomplishments at his funeral while dismissing his KKK membership as something he just needed to do to get elected. Of course Clinton neglected to mention Byrd's attempt to filibuster the 1964 civil rights act with support from leading Democrats.

As with so many issues, Democrats wish to portray a false dilemma of choice between 2 extremes, racism as pandemic or a complete denial of racism. Naturally anyone who doubts the existence of pademic racism which can only be cured by increased Federal control over outcomes is Republican denier of racism. There is no middle ground where racial discrimination is recognized and delt with in a reasoned way. So desperate are the Democrats to hold on to the minority constituency no reasoned discussion is allowed.
The Democratic party seems to thrive on misleading the gullible about their past. They has successfully transferred their sins onto the GOP by converting the term Conservatism to mean the retention of slavery and racism. This despite most civil rights, voting rights and even personal liberties such as gun ownership were proposed and promoted by conservative activist.

What is ironic about the OP premise, the very title of this thread, it is the same kind of deceits. Boldly stated as fact yet,,, Completely untrue. As we have seen in the recent Iowa caucus, where the GOP vigor brought record participation, the GOP is alive and vibrant. There are at least 10 viable candidates with popularity spreads from 30% to 2% which brings healthy factionalism to the debate and selection.

On the Democratic side, you essentially have two aged warhorses, stuck in the same mantra, feeding the same pabulum so consistently, they virtually tied in the popularity contest. It's is as though they are walking in exactly the same footsteps on exactly the same path. The path to nowhere.

We don't yet know where the GOP will take us. The party is fractured by factions. So, there are so many options for the voters to choose. As some may well remember, it is why we vote.

Exactly as Madison designed.
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
MAANNN! I think you just click on the green thingy,the second word in me intro to the OP should take you to the off tune Dylan song written in 1964.Me formitive years
You mean 2 & 3rd words or link in post #1, which I do not click on just because you or anyone else places them in a post.

I don't do links, period, unless they are mine.
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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The complaint that because the prison population doesn’t mirror the general population's racial make up is another of the disportionate impact equals racism myths.
Where did i say that you've brought that up twice now.

And here's the thing.
you've framed it wrong.

"prison population doesn’t mirror the general population's racial make up is another of the disportionate impact equals racism"
the part that's the problem is the word EQUALS.
I don't know of many that site studies that say that.
what we should say is...
"prison population doesn’t mirror the general population's racial make up is another of the disportionate impact INDICATES THAT racism may be a real issue"

If you have to shelves of chips, 1 and 1/2 shelves of Plain and a 1/2 shelf of BBQ and most of the BBQ is sold and Most of the plain untouched you can see there's a preference in buying pattern. the next step is to see why.
Taste, shelf position, packaging, freshness, price?

ALL could be playing a role but there are ways to see which are factors.
Maybe Taste AND Price are EQUAL factors but it doesn't NEGATE that taste IS a REAL and substantial factor AZ.

this is the problem i have with your assertion, you seem to want to COMPLETELY dismiss racism as a factor by saying it's not "the ONLY" factor.
and you don't want to take any steps policy wise to address THAT fact or even acknowledge it at all.

that's the problem with the rights POV on this issue.
They want to make it all or nothing question. Or minimizes it to the point that they feel justified in not addressing it at all except to lay ALL responsibility on the "criminals". Even as police come out and say they were arresting INNOCENT people for 30 years. Police confess to targeting black crimes and ignoring white crimes, Arrest blacks while warning whites. Judges and prosecutors admit to longer sentences etc etc..



Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder
*In housing there have been and still are practically 'red lined' districts even though it's been technically outlawed.
Well, that is certainly your assertion.
Now all that is lacking is the actual proof...
Redlining: Still a thing- Washington Post 2015
The linked article on red lining gives an example of the HUD forcing a bank into a settlement without an admission of guilt. HUD enforces the law prohibiting red lining, the bank reaches an agreement based on allegations of wrongdoing but somehow this proves red lining is still widespread.
you asked for proof of what i said. as if it's non existent.
i gave you proof now you want it "widespread".
no it seem like you want to pretend that it DOES NOT EXIST.

again this is the problem, instead of taking an assertion seriously the republican like to 1st DENY and then minimize and then ignore the issue.

Look it happens, there are laws on books that make it illegal, but it still happens.
Blacks aren't claiming it happens EVERY time but when we do make the assertion we'd like it taken seriously. And not brushed aside as if it we're just some effort to brand all whites as racist. Sorry you don't get to pretend that racism is NEVER a factor in American life anymore IT IS.
if that exasperates republicans don't complain to those effected by it for bringing it up. Talk to those perpetrating it. let all acknowledge the problem and deal with it.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: R.I.P., GOP: Party of old, disillusioned white people is dying a slow death

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
...
If we examine murder as a proxy for all crime because murder is always investigated and prosecuted where enough evidence can be collected, we find that blacks are "over represented" as perpetrators and victims. Bringing black prison population of those convicted of murder into alignment with population racial quotas would require denying justice to black victims, something racial agitators routinely deny.
No one is suggesting black murderers should not be put in jail. that's a complete red herring. so please don't even pretend thats for real


People are pointing out that minorities who are innocent are arrested and put in jail more.
non-poor whites who commit the same crimes are arrested less and when arrested put in jail less.
And police Depts Unfairly target lower income people giving them criminal records often on BS charges there starting cycles of "crime".
this is not starting with "murder". It's starts with arrest for minor crimes or disrespecting cops or drug offensive that college student across town are never arrested for.
They get in the system and now have "priors" a bag of weed and "resisting arrest" for not moving fast enough.

Concerning the murder stats, as usually, we often don't get the whole story.
1975 there were Apx 24 million Blacks in US
1975 Apx 11,000 murders by Black criminals

2005 Apx 40 million Blacks in US
2005 apx 10,000 murders by Black Criminals
Justice Dept stats

This shows us that the number of blacks in the US basically doubled while actual numbers of murders by blacks fell.
And the more recent 2010 and 2014 stats show that it's still falling.

The FBI numbers say that 85% of murders of Whites are done by Whites.

"
Quote:
The latest figures from the FBI, Bureau of Justice Statistics and public health agencies show that among black youth, rates of robbery and serious property offenses are the lowest in more than 40 years. Rates of murder and rape are now lower than when nationwide crime statistics first appeared in 1965 — and those were far less complete than today’s. Assault rates are lower than when this crime statistic was expanded to include domestic violence and new offenses a quarter-century ago."
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz3LJyNxzFJ
Crime is DOWN across the country and across the board. Lowest rate since the 1960s
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