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News & Current Events Discuss From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple at the General Forum; Originally Posted by ShivaTD Actually these are not compensatory damages that arguably would have been well less than $100 but ...

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Old 10-02-2015, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Actually these are not compensatory damages that arguably would have been well less than $100 but instead it's punative damages and it's not being awarded because the plaintiffs are a "lesbian" couple.

The punative damages are awarded because of a blatant and gross violation of the US Constitution and Statutory Laws where the bakers violated the civil rights of a person (couple) by refusing service as a public company. Punative damages are awarded to discourage the violations of the civil rights of the person by the enterprise and by other enterprises. Compensatory damages alone would not prevent the civil rights violation.

In point of fact the bakers are lucky they weren't prosecuted for the criminal violation of the civil rights of a person (couple) because they could have ended up in prison along with paying punative damages. Of course if they continue to refuse to pay they can end up in jail for contempt of court and their property can be siezed by the court to pay the plaintiffs.
The comment is completely contrary to the facts. The baker's are being persecuted by an Oregon state bureaucrat for exercising their Constitutional right to free practice religion. The crushing fine has been imposed by a bureaucrat massively in excess of the aggrieved party's stated remedy.

The Draconian fine is simply the result of a bureaucrat pandering to a political special interest group. The couple was willing to accomodation the baker's with a simple apology but not the gay marriage zealots.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
It is only "no longer solely private property" because government forces the owner to service those he does not want to. Its scary that some people think that type of infringement upon private property rights and freedom of association is ok.
Not surprisingly you confuse the "natural/inalienable right of property" with the statutory right to operate a business. No one has a natural/inalienable right to operate a business because a "natural/inalienable right in inherent in the person, not dependent upon another person, does not violate the rights of another person, and does not impose an involuntary obligation upon another person."

Commerce is always dependent upon another person (i.e. it's not a natural/inalienable right) and business enterprises are licensed by the state. That business license includes the requirement to comply with all statutory laws which include anti-discrimination laws.

Now if the bakery wants to establish a criteria, such as "no shirt no service", it can do so as long as it applies that same criteria to all customers. It can also establish "sexual orientation" as a criteria where it refuses service to anyone that has a "sexual orientation" of any kind without discrimination. Of course it wouldn't have many customers because virtually everyone has a sexual orientation of some kind. What it can't do is impose selective criteria such as refusing to serve blacks, Jews, lesbians or gays. That is discriminatory and in violation of the Civil Rights Act and statutory anti-discrimination laws.

As noted this case was no different than discrimination based upon race or religion because it was based upon the nefarious criteria of specific sexual orientation. It was a civil rights case because the business, operating under the statutory laws, engaged in discrimination which is prohibited by the statutory laws.

If the bakers want to discriminate in making cakes and providing them to people of their choice then they're welcome to do that but they can't sell them commerically under their business license.

I don't really understand why Republicans advocate for lawlessness in our society. We have laws and we must either follow them or face the consequences if we don't. The bakers violated the law and have to face the consequences for their actions.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Not surprisingly you confuse the "natural/inalienable right of property" with the statutory right to operate a business. No one has a natural/inalienable right to operate a business because a "natural/inalienable right in inherent in the person, not dependent upon another person, does not violate the rights of another person, and does not impose an involuntary obligation upon another person."

Commerce is always dependent upon another person (i.e. it's not a natural/inalienable right) and business enterprises are licensed by the state. That business license includes the requirement to comply with all statutory laws which include anti-discrimination laws.

Now if the bakery wants to establish a criteria, such as "no shirt no service", it can do so as long as it applies that same criteria to all customers. It can also establish "sexual orientation" as a criteria where it refuses service to anyone that has a "sexual orientation" of any kind without discrimination. Of course it wouldn't have many customers because virtually everyone has a sexual orientation of some kind. What it can't do is impose selective criteria such as refusing to serve blacks, Jews, lesbians or gays. That is discriminatory and in violation of the Civil Rights Act and statutory anti-discrimination laws.

As noted this case was no different than discrimination based upon race or religion because it was based upon the nefarious criteria of specific sexual orientation. It was a civil rights case because the business, operating under the statutory laws, engaged in discrimination which is prohibited by the statutory laws.

If the bakers want to discriminate in making cakes and providing them to people of their choice then they're welcome to do that but they can't sell them commerically under their business license.

I don't really understand why Republicans advocate for lawlessness in our society. We have laws and we must either follow them or face the consequences if we don't. The bakers violated the law and have to face the consequences for their actions.
i dont think the Republicans were even very comfortable with civil rights apply ing to "them" people. And if a single one of these wedding cake court cases wins for the right it will be the end of civil rights. The Republicans can lead us back to the 50's.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
i dont think the Republicans were even very comfortable with civil rights apply ing to "them" people. And if a single one of these wedding cake court cases wins for the right it will be the end of civil rights. The Republicans can lead us back to the 50's.
Oh so now you are a mind reader who of course can see the very worse in Republicans, anything to foreclose further debate.

The discrimination laws of the 50's, known as Jim Crow, were created and maintained by Democrats. Leading us back to the 50's would be reviving the Democrats discrimination by law. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of the Left's hate fest.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Oh so now you are a mind reader who of course can see the very worse in Republicans, anything to foreclose further debate.

The discrimination laws of the 50's, known as Jim Crow, were created and maintained by Democrats. Leading us back to the 50's would be reviving the Democrats discrimination by law. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of the Left's hate fest.
So why is the only sin the bakers care about homosexuality? Do they sell cakes to fat people? This aint the 50's.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
So why is the only sin the bakers care about homosexuality? Do they sell cakes to fat people? This aint the 50's.
Now you want to place yourself as judge of the baker's religious beliefs. The baker's objection was to participating the judicially mandated gay marriage not wholesale discrimination against homosexuals.

According to the OP the lesbian couple would have been satisfied with an apology from the baker after which they would have moved on to find a willing baker. But that accomodation of religious rights was totally unacceptable to the wildly intolerant jack booted bureaucrat who insisted on a massive fine to destroy the bakers.

Where is the respect for the practice of religious freedom? Where is the objection to the Federal judiciary discarding it's traditional deference to state legislatures?
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Now you want to place yourself as judge of the baker's religious beliefs. The baker's objection was to participating the judicially mandated gay marriage not wholesale discrimination against homosexuals.

According to the OP the lesbian couple would have been satisfied with an apology from the baker after which they would have moved on to find a willing baker. But that accomodation of religious rights was totally unacceptable to the wildly intolerant jack booted bureaucrat who insisted on a massive fine to destroy the bakers.

Where is the respect for the practice of religious freedom? Where is the objection to the Federal judiciary discarding it's traditional deference to state legislatures?
You need to start discussing stuff without the personal attacks. You arent the only one but it makes you guys sound even stupider. Again, why are no other sins the object of RWers religious concern?
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
You need to start discussing stuff without the personal attacks. You arent the only one but it makes you guys sound even stupider. Again, why are no other sins the object of RWers religious concern?
You object to an imaginary personal attack, the fact that you claim to be the judge of religious beliefs, is not an attack. Then you follow up your condemnation of me for supposedly personal attacks with name calling.

Repeating the same question doesn’t make it valid. Kindly explain where you get the authority to question the religious freedom of others. Oh wait, the objective is to avoid discussing the bakers religious freedom by posing hypotheticals.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

Your last 3 posts I have bothered to read started out aimed at the poster, not the topic. I know you make up your own definitions, but most people would take it personal. I will actively ignore you until you say something topical and intelligent, or funny. It might be a while.
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You object to an imaginary personal attack, the fact that you claim to be the judge of religious beliefs, is not an attack. Then you follow up your condemnation of me for supposedly personal attacks with name calling.

Repeating the same question doesn’t make it valid. Kindly explain where you get the authority to question the religious freedom of others. Oh wait, the objective is to avoid discussing the bakers religious freedom by posing hypotheticals.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Now you want to place yourself as judge of the baker's religious beliefs. The baker's objection was to participating the judicially mandated gay marriage not wholesale discrimination against homosexuals.
The baker was to furnish a cake to a customer and was not involved in any participation in the marriage. Where do people come up with such absurd notions?

A bakery sells cakes, breads, cookies and other assorted baked goods.

A bakery doesn't conduct and is not involved in marriage ceremonies.

I really don't care what the religious beliefs of the baker are because it has nothing to do with operating a business that is selling baked goods to customers.
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"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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