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News & Current Events Discuss Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution? at the General Forum; Originally Posted by ShivaTD I don't think it a subject that social-conservatives like to address. Clearly they oppose the US ...

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I don't think it a subject that social-conservatives like to address. Clearly they oppose the US Constitution by opposing a Woman's Constitutionally protected right to an abortion or the Constitutionally protected right of "equal protection under the law" for same-sex couples.

Once agian I think the primary failure of the "social-conservative" ideology expressed by Huckabee hinges upon his "anti" agenda as opposed to having a "pro" agenda on issues of importance.
They may oppose abortion, but they will never try to overturn it. The left was freaking out before Bush was elected the first time, saying he would overturn Rose vs wade, he won with a majority in the house and senate and never even gave it a thought. As far as Gay marriage, who really gives a sh*it anymore. Legal marriage should mean "Everything Goes", Changing the meaning of words, out-lawing words, etc.. is an entire agenda that would require a new thread.
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
They may oppose abortion, but they will never try to overturn it. The left was freaking out before Bush was elected the first time, saying he would overturn Rose vs wade, he won with a majority in the house and senate and never even gave it a thought. As far as Gay marriage, who really gives a sh*it anymore. Legal marriage should mean "Everything Goes", Changing the meaning of words, out-lawing words, etc.. is an entire agenda that would require a new thread.
The problem is that Republicans attempt to nefarious circumvent the Constitutional Right of a woman to have an abortion. For example the "anti-abortion" laws passed in Texas didn't expressly prevent a woman from having an abortion but instead were used to close abortion clinics to deny access. Denial of access equates effectively to denial of service and Republicans know that.

Yes, equal rights in marriage is pretty much a slam-dunk Constitutionally. What is false is that the word "marriage" has not changed. It still represents a partnership between consenting adults from the perspective of the government. The "one man, one woman" definition is a religious definition as opposed to a legal definition.

One problem I see is that it's the social-conservatives that tend to change the definitions of words. For over 150 years the laws of the United States did not typically refer to "marriage" as being exclusively between a man and a woman. Those laws didn't originate until after 1971. It really was Christian religious beliefs that resulted in legally limiting "marriage" to only between one man and one woman under the law and it occurred in recent (i.e. post 1971) history.

The same was true of the word "child" that always referred to a person starting at birth as technically prior to birth it is a zygote, embryo or fetus. Since 1971 the anti-abortionists have created this new legal terminology of "child in the womb" which is really a nonsensical redefinition of the word "child" in our lexicon. Of course they don't call the "child in the womb" a person (entitled to Constitutionally protected rights) because that would violate the Roe v Wade decision.

Back to my point. Republcans can be Pro-Life and Pro-Traditional Marriage so long as they aren't "Anti" the Protected Rights of the Person as it relates to abortion and same-sex marriage.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

You know what it really sad? Obama fought hard and was able to stop a bill outlawing post birth abortion. last month he said he was going to degrade and destroy ISIS. But he is not trying at all. Kinda shows what is important to him.
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:58 AM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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You know what it really sad? Obama fought hard and was able to stop a bill outlawing post birth abortion. last month he said he was going to degrade and destroy ISIS. But he is not trying at all. Kinda shows what is important to him.
Once again this thread has absolutely nothing to do with President Obama or the Democrats.

It's about Huckabee being "anti-abortion" and "anti-marriage equality" that are both represent being opposed to the US Constitution. Instead of being "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Traditional Marriage" it's his "anti" stance that opposes the Constitutional protections of the person that are at issue.
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Old 10-13-2014, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
You are aware that this is referring to a fetus removed intact that would not survive naturally or that would subjected to severe suffering if it were to survive aren't you?

The proposition is that the attending physician and the woman, not a bunch of Republican lawmakers that have no knowledge about an individual case, should make the decision because they're the most qualified individuals to make a decision related to an individual case that will always have un-anticipatable considerations.
You are aware that there are MANY partial birth abortions in this country every year where the baby is healthy and viable aren't you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The problem is that Republicans attempt to nefarious circumvent the Constitutional Right of a woman to have an abortion. For example the "anti-abortion" laws passed in Texas didn't expressly prevent a woman from having an abortion but instead were used to close abortion clinics to deny access. Denial of access equates effectively to denial of service and Republicans know that.

Yes, equal rights in marriage is pretty much a slam-dunk Constitutionally. What is false is that the word "marriage" has not changed. It still represents a partnership between consenting adults from the perspective of the government. The "one man, one woman" definition is a religious definition as opposed to a legal definition.

One problem I see is that it's the social-conservatives that tend to change the definitions of words. For over 150 years the laws of the United States did not typically refer to "marriage" as being exclusively between a man and a woman. Those laws didn't originate until after 1971. It really was Christian religious beliefs that resulted in legally limiting "marriage" to only between one man and one woman under the law and it occurred in recent (i.e. post 1971) history.

The same was true of the word "child" that always referred to a person starting at birth as technically prior to birth it is a zygote, embryo or fetus. Since 1971 the anti-abortionists have created this new legal terminology of "child in the womb" which is really a nonsensical redefinition of the word "child" in our lexicon. Of course they don't call the "child in the womb" a person (entitled to Constitutionally protected rights) because that would violate the Roe v Wade decision.

Back to my point. Republcans can be Pro-Life and Pro-Traditional Marriage so long as they aren't "Anti" the Protected Rights of the Person as it relates to abortion and same-sex marriage.
Funny, I never hear women (even progressive, liberal women) say, "I'm going to have a zygote" or "I'm going to have a fetus".
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Old 10-13-2014, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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You are aware that there are MANY partial birth abortions in this country every year where the baby is healthy and viable aren't you?





Funny, I never hear women (even progressive, liberal women) say, "I'm going to have a zygote" or "I'm going to have a fetus".
Didn't some actress name her kid Zygote?
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Old 10-13-2014, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

Audio: Obama argues against Born Alive legislation in IL state senate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUkbuhXzbvI
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
Audio: Obama argues against Born Alive legislation in IL state senate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUkbuhXzbvI
Seems that attitude about the personhood of a live fetus would be a important element in the assessment of a man's character.

However, when one is enamored by his charm and good looks, all such evil is ignored. We are scolded that this is not applicable to the argument that would suggest Huckabee is leaving the GOP because they are caving to this charming position.

Why is this not relevant?

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Old 10-14-2014, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

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You are aware that there are MANY partial birth abortions in this country every year where the baby is healthy and viable aren't you?
I have not read any statistics on this nor did you provide any. We do know that only about 1.7% of all abortions occur when there is even a possibility of survival and that all of these are certified by a doctor as being necessary abortions.

I'd actually be "with you" in addressing and doing something about a healthy and viable child being "put to death" after being surgically removed from the woman's body but I cannot support nefarious laws that would prevent or limit access for any other abortions especially the 98.3% that are unrelated to a viable fetus.

If you will fully support the "Right to an Abortion" (including access to abortion clinics) for the 98.3% as well as those cases where the fetus will not result in a "healthy and viable" baby you can count me onboard with addressing the apparently rare instances where a "healthy and viable" baby is successfully removed by surgery from the woman's body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
Funny, I never hear women (even progressive, liberal women) say, "I'm going to have a zygote" or "I'm going to have a fetus".
Common usage of words has no bearing upon the legal use of words. Please understand that there is a huge difference between the two. For example "child in the womb" has no relevance under the US Constitution that addresses "persons" because only "persons" (i.e. beginning at birth and through death) have any protected "rights" under the Constitution. A "child in the womb" is not a "protected person" under a strict interpretation of the US Constitution and doesn't have a protected right to life.

As you do note above if a healthy and viable "person" exists due to surgical removal then I have a serious problem with putting it to death. Once outside of the woman's body it is a "child" and has Constitutionally protected rights.

The pragmatic problem is that the doctor could always ensure the death of the fetus prior to removal from the woman's body. This is the flip side of the problem that a doctor could also ensure that the "fetus" is removed unharmed and intact to be allowed to die of natural causes so that the "murder" allegations made by the anti-abortionists becomes invalid.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 10-14-2014, 12:14 PM
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Post Re: Huckabee - to leave GOP over Constitution?

Well, I guess it's official that this is an abortion thread now...

Quote:
Anti-abortion activists accuse Obama of "supporting infanticide," and the National Right to Life Committee says he’s conducted a "four-year effort to cover up his full role in killing legislation to protect born-alive survivors of abortions." Obama says they’re "lying."
At issue is Obama’s opposition to Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection, even if doctors believe it could not survive.
Obama opposed the 2001 and 2002 "born alive" bills as backdoor attacks on a woman’s legal right to abortion, but he says he would have been "fully in support" of a similar federal bill that President Bush had signed in 2002, because it contained protections for Roe v. Wade.
Obama and ‘Infanticide’

But hey.
Yet again, why let the facts interfere with a right-wing lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
You are aware that there are MANY partial birth abortions in this country every year where the baby is healthy and viable aren't you?
Quantify (with evidence) your claim of "MANY".
HOW many are we actually talking about here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyB View Post
Funny, I never hear women (even progressive, liberal women) say, "I'm going to have a zygote" or "I'm going to have a fetus".
Do you understand that "going to have" implies FUTURE tense. As in they are describing what they will have IN THE FUTURE.

The actual term is "fetus" for what's in the woman when she's pregnant.
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