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Old 07-08-2008, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

And I agree with all of that. If someone were to enter my home, I will assume the worst and defend myself... I will not be risking my life or the life of my family to find out the intruder's intentions.

That was not the situation in this case, that has been made very clear.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

Here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"
Horn: "Yes?"
Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."
Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."
Dispatcher: "I understand."
Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."
Dispatcher: "I'm ..."
Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."
Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?

Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]


Does it sound at all like Mr. Horn's life was in danger? It doesn't really sound like he gave them much of a chance to stop either. It does sound like he was fully aware the he was within the law to shoot and kill them.

He was pissed they were stealing, and he decided they should die. Legal maybe, definitely not anywhere near right. Even he knows it...

Two days later, Horn released a statement through an attorney.

“The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life," it said. "My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.”

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

Therein lies the difference.

Man Kills Suspects While On Phone With 911, Two Men Shot In Texas By Joe Horn Who Saw Suspects Leaving Neighbor's House - CBS News
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:08 AM
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Post Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

Quote:
Originally Posted by dga View Post
Here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"
Horn: "Yes?"
Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."
Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."
Dispatcher: "I understand."
Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."
Dispatcher: "I'm ..."
Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."
Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?

Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]


Does it sound at all like Mr. Horn's life was in danger? It doesn't really sound like he gave them much of a chance to stop either. It does sound like he was fully aware the he was within the law to shoot and kill them.

He was pissed they were stealing, and he decided they should die. Legal maybe, definitely not anywhere near right. Even he knows it...

Two days later, Horn released a statement through an attorney.

“The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life," it said. "My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.”

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

Therein lies the difference.

Man Kills Suspects While On Phone With 911, Two Men Shot In Texas By Joe Horn Who Saw Suspects Leaving Neighbor's House - CBS News
I am kicking myself for not looking for that sooner.
I had no idea the killer was so blatant in expressing his motives and intentions.

The killer EXPLICITLY CHOSE to leave his own house and put himself in a LESS safe position.

Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something.
...
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]


This was a vigilante execution. Shooting two people in the back.
Yes. They were thieves. But being thieves does not justify killing somebody.

And just to be perfectly clear, if the thieves were invading Horn's place, this would be a DIFFERENT DISCUSSION and my conclusion would be different.
But that is NOT that situation.
There are several facts that stink to high heaven in all this.
1) Horn shot them in the back.
2) They were fleeing the scene of the crime at the time. Horn was not in any danger. The only benefit besides obvious vigilantism is that Horn's actions secured property. Property theft prevention at the cost of two lives is not justifiable.
3) Horn was EXPLICITLY told the police were showing up. Horn didn't care. Horn wanted revenge and he took it.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

I think there must be a reason a law like this would be expanded upon. If you can't put anything down in your own house or buildings on your property without fear someone will make off with it, and the police are overburdened with crime calls as it is, citizens have the right -as I see it- to protect what's theirs. And to protect the property of a neighbor.
The victim in this whole scenario was the neighbor who was not home.
Grand theft auto is a felony. Many states have a three time (for the same type of offense or habitual criminal) loser law. So it's not so foreign an idea that someone can be given life without parole for theft. That's the same in some states as a death penalty. Cause life w/o is the highest punishments states without the death penalty have.
For me this goes along with right to bear arms. I also have a right to use those arms to prevent chaos from becoming the rule of the day. If it takes a few deaths before theifs catch on that invasion of someone else's property is not an acceptable form of behavior, then so be it.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I think there must be a reason a law like this would be expanded upon. If you can't put anything down in your own house or buildings on your property without fear someone will make off with it, and the police are overburdened with crime calls as it is, citizens have the right -as I see it- to protect what's theirs. And to protect the property of a neighbor.
The victim in this whole scenario was the neighbor who was not home.
Grand theft auto is a felony. Many states have a three time (for the same type of offense or habitual criminal) loser law. So it's not so foreign an idea that someone can be given life without parole for theft. That's the same in some states as a death penalty. Cause life w/o is the highest punishments states without the death penalty have.
For me this goes along with right to bear arms. I also have a right to use those arms to prevent chaos from becoming the rule of the day. If it takes a few deaths before theifs catch on that invasion of someone else's property is not an acceptable form of behavior, then so be it.

What if the shot had missed? What if he was nervous, his aim was off, and that shot went through another neighbor's window, killing an innocent man, woman or child? That might be the case tomorrow, and then we'll see if it was worth it. Violence begets violence. Property over life, disgusting,
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I think there must be a reason a law like this would be expanded upon. If you can't put anything down in your own house or buildings on your property without fear someone will make off with it, and the police are overburdened with crime calls as it is, citizens have the right -as I see it- to protect what's theirs. And to protect the property of a neighbor.
The victim in this whole scenario was the neighbor who was not home.
Grand theft auto is a felony. Many states have a three time (for the same type of offense or habitual criminal) loser law. So it's not so foreign an idea that someone can be given life without parole for theft. That's the same in some states as a death penalty. Cause life w/o is the highest punishments states without the death penalty have.
For me this goes along with right to bear arms. I also have a right to use those arms to prevent chaos from becoming the rule of the day. If it takes a few deaths before theifs catch on that invasion of someone else's property is not an acceptable form of behavior, then so be it.
Exactly. I go back to the fact these two men risked their lives when they decided to climb in that window. I wonder what would have happened if Mr. Horn had gone out and just stood at the window and told them to wait for the cops?
Or are you just supposed to be there to give a good description so the police can keep records for the burglary statistics so your homeowner's insurance can go up?
In this case, I fail to see the down side.

Property isn't worth killing somebody over is an opinion I don't share. cause if I see someone running out of my house with MY property that I paid for with MY money, damn em. If the U.S. government can train me to shoot people I don't really have a beef with, I'll be damn if I can't fire a slug in the ass of somebgody stealing from me or my neighbor. Cause I'm almost certain once the dudes are gone, I'll never see the stuff again.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

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Originally Posted by dga View Post
What if the shot had missed? What if he was nervous, his aim was off, and that shot went through another neighbor's window, killing an innocent man, woman or child? That might be the case tomorrow, and then we'll see if it was worth it. Violence begets violence. Property over life, disgusting,
If violence begets violence, the burglar still started it. And they begat a bullet in their butts.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:09 PM
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If violence begets violence, the burglar still started it. And they begat a bullet in their butts.
I can't agree with the rest of it, but I found this funny,
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Man who killed burglary suspects cleared

Quote:
Originally Posted by dga View Post
What if the shot had missed? What if he was nervous, his aim was off, and that shot went through another neighbor's window, killing an innocent man, woman or child? That might be the case tomorrow, and then we'll see if it was worth it. Violence begets violence. Property over life, disgusting,
What works in Texas may not be right for New York or other places on the east coast. Different regions have different problems and mannerisms and histories.
I would not want this to become a law in all 50 states, because the citisens are not the same everywhere.
I think it's outrageous you can't smoke a cigarette on the beach in California. Evidently the people there elect officials who feel differently.
Property rights is an issue that has been deemed important since this country's inception. States handle the offense of property rights violation in different ways their citizenry see fit.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:13 PM
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Exactly. I go back to the fact these two men risked their lives when they decided to climb in that window. I wonder what would have happened if Mr. Horn had gone out and just stood at the window and told them to wait for the cops?
Or are you just supposed to be there to give a good description so the police can keep records for the burglary statistics so your homeowner's insurance can go up?
In this case, I fail to see the down side.

Property isn't worth killing somebody over is an opinion I don't share. cause if I see someone running out of my house with MY property that I paid for with MY money, damn em. If the U.S. government can train me to shoot people I don't really have a beef with, I'll be damn if I can't fire a slug in the ass of somebgody stealing from me or my neighbor. Cause I'm almost certain once the dudes are gone, I'll never see the stuff again.
Well, if in this process your dumb ass fires off a shot that hurts or kills one of my babies, then you can be sure you're the one that'll need to be running. Since I don't own a gun, I might just have to find myself a machete, Your stolen stuff will be the least of your worries.
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