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News & Current Events Discuss Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down at the General Forum; Originally Posted by foundit66 I think the bolded portion strikes at the heart of the ruling. From my interpretation of ...

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post

I think the bolded portion strikes at the heart of the ruling.
From my interpretation of the news article, it has to do with what constitutes "justifiable reason". It does not look like the court is saying that there are no justifiable reasons.

It looks like this court is saying that simply applying for a welfare check is not (in and of itself) "justifiable reason".
All of that.

I don't believe in a blanket or random drug testing for assistance, if for nothing else but for the sake of fiscal responsibility. If a government agency has a justified reason or a suspicion of abuse or fraud like using welfare or food stamps to buy drugs, THAT is when we should and must investigate and possibly have the recipient go under drug screening. Anything else is a waste of time and money, it is wasteful spending.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Smith of The Drug Policy Alliance
[T]he writing is on the wall that requiring people to submit to drug testing for no reason other than being poor and in need of assistance is not going to pass constitutional muster.
Actually, that characterization is a bit tendentious. And misleading.

The Florida law that this judge struck down was never intended to target those who might have the temerity to be "poor and in need of assistance"; rather, it was intended to ensure that those receiving such assistance were not abusing the privilege by using a large portion of that money to purchase illegal drugs.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Actually, that characterization is a bit tendentious. And misleading.

The Florida law that this judge struck down was never intended to target those who might have the temerity to be "poor and in need of assistance"; rather, it was intended to ensure that those receiving such assistance were not abusing the privilege by using a large portion of that money to purchase illegal drugs.
I dont have a problem with it but think it should be for all public employees all the way up to the top. if the fact we are supporting them is criteria and not them being poor then lets apply it across the board.
and I bet we would see congress pass a law prohibiting same.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I dont have a problem with it but think it should be for all public employees all the way up to the top. if the fact we are supporting them is criteria and not them being poor then lets apply it across the board.
The problem with that, it seems to me, is that "all public employees," going "all the way to the top," do not receive public funds; so the motivation is really not similar.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The problem with that, it seems to me, is that "all public employees," going "all the way to the top," do not receive public funds; so the motivation is really not similar.
huh?
How do you get that?
explain
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
huh?
How do you get that?
explain
I believe that anyone who receives public assistance should be subject to regulations that ensure that the money being supplied by society in general is not being abused through the purchase of illegal drugs.

If those at or near the top of an organization are receiving public assistance--e.g. welfare--they should be subject to the same regulations.

But I find it difficult to imagine that this is the case...
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Actually, that characterization is a bit tendentious. And misleading.
The Florida law that this judge struck down was never intended to target those who might have the temerity to be "poor and in need of assistance";
But that's exactly what it did.
Did that law apply to any other segment of the population other than those who were poor and in need of assistance (i.e. welfare)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
...rather, it was intended to ensure that those receiving such assistance were not abusing the privilege by using a large portion of that money to purchase illegal drugs.
It is no more illegal for "those receiving assistance" to use illegal drugs than those who do not receive assistance.
The court ruling deals with a violation of "warrantless, suspicionless drug testing".
You provide no justification for a warrant. No justification for a probable cause suspicion.

Just subjective value judgments that target one group.

Likewise, if I had said I do not want
blacks to do drugs,
men to do drugs,
Christians to do drugs, or
Republicans to do drugs...
My desire for the one particular group to NOT do drugs does not justify a violation of the legal requirements in order to justify a search that should require a warrant.

That is what you need to understand, instead of trying to rephrase the same violation into a more trite propagandic phrasing.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I believe that anyone who receives public assistance should be subject to regulations that ensure that the money being supplied by society in general is not being abused through the purchase of illegal drugs.

If those at or near the top of an organization are receiving public assistance--e.g. welfare--they should be subject to the same regulations.

But I find it difficult to imagine that this is the case...
They are working for us and are paid by our taxes and you would not hold them to the same criteria?
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
But that's exactly what it did.
Did that law apply to any other segment of the population other than those who were poor and in need of assistance (i.e. welfare)?
It applied to those who were purchasing illegal drugs while receiving public assistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
It is no more illegal for "those receiving assistance" to use illegal drugs than those who do not receive assistance.
This is certainly true.

But those purchasing illegal drugs with money that has not been obtained through income redistribution do not warrant drug testing for the purpose of determining if such assistance is warranted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
The court ruling deals with a violation of "warrantless, suspicionless drug testing".
You provide no justification for a warrant. No justification for a probable cause suspicion.

Just subjective value judgments that target one group.

Likewise, if I had said I do not want
blacks to do drugs,
men to do drugs,
Christians to do drugs, or
Republicans to do drugs...
My desire for the one particular group to NOT do drugs does not justify a violation of the legal requirements in order to justify a search that should require a warrant.

That is what you need to understand, instead of trying to rephrase the same violation into a more trite propagandic phrasing.
No one is squandering public funds by the mere fact of his or her race, gender, religious affiliation, or political affiliation...
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:31 PM
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Post Re: Florida Law on Drug Tests for Welfare Is Struck Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
No problem, instead of listing them as "welfare applicants" list them as "job applicants", call them welfare distribution specialists and do a pre-employment screening and randoms tests there after.
You would still lose.
Court ruling limits employment drug testing - SFGate
A city can't require all job applicants to be tested for narcotics and must instead show why drug use in a particular job would be dangerous, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Excellent, perhaps this judicial genius can also rule cops, paramedics and firefighter's also can't be drug tested.
If you consider the above ruling, you'll see why the existing standards provide a clear distinction between welfare recipients and the people you mentioned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
It's not like these people are being pulled off the street and forced to pee in a cup, they are being screened before being allowed to take someone else's money.
Why is it hard to grasp that "being allowed to take someone else's money" is not probable cause?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
When I hire someone pre-employment drug screening is part of the deal, don't like it, fine don't work here. Same goes for welfare.
Either you have justification which meets the existing standards for employment drug testing ...
... or you are one disgruntled applicant / employee away from a lawsuit you would lose.

Either way, that's not refuting the existing standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It applied to those who were purchasing illegal drugs while receiving public assistance.
This is certainly true.
But those purchasing illegal drugs with money that has not been obtained through income redistribution do not warrant drug testing for the purpose of determining if such assistance is warranted.
It is no more or less illegal to purchase illegal drugs with money obtained from the government, as opposed to money obtained from sources other than the government.

Moreover, there is nothing in obtaining money from the government which deprives a citizen of his rights regarding warrants and probable cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
No one is squandering public funds by the mere fact of his or her race, gender, religious affiliation, or political affiliation...
You're missing the point.
Anybody can pick any arbitrary group and declare that it must be subject to searches that do not satisfy probable cause / warrant requirements.
It would no more and no less satisfy the legal requirements (and constitutional failings) than picking welfare recipients.

You've got a group you are interested in for checking for drug use, but legally (& Constitutionally) you must provide a probable cause for requiring them to submit to any drug testing.
There's no way around it.
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Last edited by foundit66; 01-03-2014 at 07:37 PM..
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