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Old 07-04-2013, 07:27 PM
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Default Mikey - good news about the economy

I just saw blip on Fox News saying that the North American Continent has more recoverable oil and gas than the whole rest of the world. An economist said with a little effort, America could become energy independent in a decade. He also said because our energy prices were going down, a lot of manufacturing that left the US in the past two decades is now starting to return to this country.

If we go after our oil and gas (in all areas), get the XL pipeline going and get around the idiots trying to stop fracking, our whole economy could go back to it's heyday in the 80's and 90's with-in a 10 year span. Everyone will have a job and the middle class will once again be a growing, thriving entity.

In other words, we can make our own destiny. It will take a lot of hard work and some tough decisions, but it is with-in our grasp. Now is the time to reach out and grab that brass ring.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
I just saw blip on Fox News saying that the North American Continent has more recoverable oil and gas than the whole rest of the world. An economist said with a little effort, America could become energy independent in a decade. He also said because our energy prices were going down, a lot of manufacturing that left the US in the past two decades is now starting to return to this country.

If we go after our oil and gas (in all areas), get the XL pipeline going and get around the idiots trying to stop fracking, our whole economy could go back to it's heyday in the 80's and 90's with-in a 10 year span. Everyone will have a job and the middle class will once again be a growing, thriving entity.

In other words, we can make our own destiny. It will take a lot of hard work and some tough decisions, but it is with-in our grasp. Now is the time to reach out and grab that brass ring.
I saw that too, but there is a big obstacle in the way, democrats and obama.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

A couple of notes:

1. We do not want to be energy independent if that means exploiting our own oil reserves for energy purposes. Let me explain briefly. As alluring as "energy independent" sounds, it's actually not the best idea in our arsenal. Our largest supplier of oil is Canada. The massive amounts of oil we buy from Canada is a stabalizing force in the economy and helps foster greater trade in other segments of the economy (if Canadians have money from oil, they are buying our cars and other manufactured goods).

2. We want to sit on our supply as long as we can and not use the oil for energy. Look, I'm from an oil family. We like to drill and produce. Problem is that oil is still a finite resource. The least efficient use of oil is as an energy source. Oil has far more useful long term applications such as medicine and electronics. Instead of focusing on oil as an energy source, we should be looking at natural gas and other sources that have no other important applications.

3. As the previous president would say, strategery. The Middle East is quickly running out of oil, but new exploration in Russia and Africa continue to bring new supplies. It is in our best national security interests to sit on our supply as long as we can and use other people's oil. It ensures our superpower status.

Just my two cents.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
A couple of notes:

1. We do not want to be energy independent if that means exploiting our own oil reserves for energy purposes. Let me explain briefly. As alluring as "energy independent" sounds, it's actually not the best idea in our arsenal. Our largest supplier of oil is Canada. The massive amounts of oil we buy from Canada is a stabalizing force in the economy and helps foster greater trade in other segments of the economy (if Canadians have money from oil, they are buying our cars and other manufactured goods).

2. We want to sit on our supply as long as we can and not use the oil for energy. Look, I'm from an oil family. We like to drill and produce. Problem is that oil is still a finite resource. The least efficient use of oil is as an energy source. Oil has far more useful long term applications such as medicine and electronics. Instead of focusing on oil as an energy source, we should be looking at natural gas and other sources that have no other important applications.

3. As the previous president would say, strategery. The Middle East is quickly running out of oil, but new exploration in Russia and Africa continue to bring new supplies. It is in our best national security interests to sit on our supply as long as we can and use other people's oil. It ensures our superpower status.

Just my two cents.
I use to feel the same way also (see #3), but I no longer do. Oil may be a finite resource, but new forms of energy will be emerging in the next 50 years that will make oil obsolete as an energy source. Now is the time to tap our supplies (we have a least a 100 year supply) to help bring this country's economy back including manufacturing. If we can get the economy rolling again, the liberals will have all the tax dollars they need to institute whatever medical program they want to. Then maybe they will be willing to get rid of Obamacare.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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As the previous president would say, strategery.
Congratulations...you now rank with tho other Libs who still think Palin said she could she Russia from her house...

THIS is what happens when mythical attacks become part of history...

Strategery...From an SNL skit...
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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I use to feel the same way also (see #3), but I no longer do. Oil may be a finite resource, but new forms of energy will be emerging in the next 50 years that will make oil obsolete as an energy source. Now is the time to tap our supplies (we have a least a 100 year supply) to help bring this country's economy back including manufacturing. If we can get the economy rolling again, the liberals will have all the tax dollars they need to institute whatever medical program they want to. Then maybe they will be willing to get rid of Obamacare.
I keep hearing this "new energy source in fifty years" bit. They were saying that thirty five years ago, but it's still always fifty years out. If that doesn't concern you, it should. Nothing has been able to compete with oil, and there is nothing on the horizon that can. What you are suggesting is spending your life savings on the hope of winning the lottery. It's bad economic policy, it's bad energy policy, and it's bad environmental policy.

When a new energy source is in reach, then absolutely, tap the reserves. Until then, we should be rationing our domestic supply. Thank god the economy has been forcing a domestic ration since the early eighties.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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Congratulations...you now rank with tho other Libs who still think Palin said she could she Russia from her house...

THIS is what happens when mythical attacks become part of history...

Strategery...From an SNL skit...
It's a joke. And a common one. And something that bush would say. Get off your cross. Everyone's bored with it.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
I keep hearing this "new energy source in fifty years" bit. They were saying that thirty five years ago, but it's still always fifty years out. If that doesn't concern you, it should. Nothing has been able to compete with oil, and there is nothing on the horizon that can. What you are suggesting is spending your life savings on the hope of winning the lottery. It's bad economic policy, it's bad energy policy, and it's bad environmental policy.

When a new energy source is in reach, then absolutely, tap the reserves. Until then, we should be rationing our domestic supply. Thank god the economy has been forcing a domestic ration since the early eighties.
db, not sure how familiar you are with hydrogen fuel cells, so I will give you some basic information and then where we are at in the development. Our biggest challenge right now is finding a really cheap source for producing hydrogen.

They produce no pollutants, they can be used in cars, for homes or in industry. Once they perfect these units, we will no longer need the power grid, all the highly polluting power plants, high voltage overhead lines, etc. In other words, we will no longer have to transmit electricity over large distances. We will be able to manufacture it right on site with no appreciable amount of pollution.

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Hydrogen Basics


Hydrogen: No.1 on the periodic table

Fuel cells run on hydrogen, the simplest element and most plentiful gas in the universe. Hydrogen is a diatomic element, meaning that in its liquid and solid states, hydrogen naturally forms into pairs of atoms, which is why hydrogen is often referred to as “H2”. Hydrogen is the lightest element, yet it has the highest energy content per unit weight of all fuels. Hydrogen’s energy density is 52,000 Btu/lb., which is three times greater than that of gasoline.

In nature, hydrogen is never found on its own; it is always combined into molecules with other elements, typically oxygen and carbon. Hydrogen can be extracted from virtually any hydrogen-containing compound, including both renewable and non-renewable resources. Regardless of the fuel source, fuel cells utilize hydrogen with little to no polluting emissions, making hydrogen the ultimate clean energy carrier.

Safety

Hydrogen gas is similar to natural gas in that it is lighter than air, so it rises and disperses quickly. Hydrogen is non-toxic and safe to breathe. Hydrogen is also odorless, colorless, and tasteless; since it cannot be odorized like natural gas, hydrogen detection and ventilation systems are employed. Like all fuels, hydrogen is flammable and must be handled properly.

In the U.S., hydrogen is transported safely through 700 miles of pipelines, and 70 million gallons of liquid hydrogen is transported annually by truck over U.S. highways without incident. Both indoor and outdoor hydrogen refueling stations are located in several dozen states and have safely dispensed compressed hydrogen for use in passenger vehicles, buses, trucks, forklifts, and other types of vehicles.

Fuel Leak Simulation - Published by Dr. Michael R. Swain, University of Miami, this report compares the severity of a hydrogen and gasoline fuel leak and ignition. Images from the video are included.

Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Safety Report – A monthly electronic publication published by the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association (FCHEA) which provides information about developing hydrogen and fuel cell Codes and Standards and related safety information.

Hydrogen Safety for First Responders – A web-based course from the Department of Energy that provides an “awareness level” overview of hydrogen for fire, law enforcement, emergency medical personnel, along with all other interested persons. This multimedia tutorial introduces hydrogen, its basic properties, and how it compares to other familiar fuels. Tutorial also covers hydrogen use in fuel cells for transportation and stationary power, potential hazards, initial protective actions, and supplemental resources.

Production

Hydrogen can be produced from a wide range of feedstocks, and any hydrogen-rich material can serve as a possible fuel source for fuel cells. Hydrocarbon fuels, novel feedstocks such as landfill gas, anaerobic digester gas, and biomass can also produce hydrogen, as can compounds containing no carbon, such as ammonia or borohydride. The vast majority of today’s hydrogen is produced via steam reformation of natural gas (95% in the U.S., roughly 48% globally), but alternative sources such as biogas are growing in popularity.

Reformers

Hydrocarbon fuels – methanol, ethanol, natural gas, petroleum distillates, liquid propane, and gasified coal – can yield hydrogen in a process called reforming. Natural gas, the feedstock of choice for most of today’s mass-produced hydrogen, contains methane (CH4) that can be used to produce hydrogen via a thermal process known as steam-methane reformation. In steam-methane reforming, methane reacts with steam in the presence of a catalyst to produce hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide. Steam reforming is endothermic, meaning heat must be supplied to the process for the reaction to proceed. The process is approximately 72 percent efficient. This type of reforming works similarly for other hydrocarbon fuels, combining the fuel with steam by vaporizing them together at high temperatures. Hydrogen is then separated out using membranes. Another type of reformer is the partial oxidation (POX) reformer. Some CO2 is emitted in the reforming process, but the emissions of NOX, SOX, particulates, and other smog producing agents are cut to zero.

Water Electrolysis

When an electric current is introduced to water (H2O), hydrogen and oxygen are separated, with hydrogen forming at the cathode and oxygen forming at the anode. Electricity can be provided from any source, but using solar and wind energy to electrolyze water provides the cleanest pathway to produce hydrogen. This model is being used in some hydrogen refueling stations and in renewable energy storage systems that utilize hydrogen.

Enzymes

Another method to generate hydrogen is with bacteria and algae. Cyanobacteria, an abundant single-celled organism, produce hydrogen through its normal metabolic function. Cyanobacteria can grow in the air or water, and contain enzymes that absorb sunlight for energy and split the molecules of water, thus producing hydrogen. Since cyanobacteria take water and synthesize it to hydrogen, the waste emitted is more water, which becomes food for the next metabolism. Sodium borohydride (NaBH4) is an inorganic compound that can dissolve in water in the absence of a base. Hydrogen can be generated through catalytic decomposition.

Storage & Delivery

Hydrogen can be stored as either a liquid or a gas. To store hydrogen in liquid form, hydrogen must be cooled to -423 °F, requiring a tremendous amount of energy. Therefore, hydrogen produced in large quantities is usually pressurized as a gas then stored in caverns, gas fields, or mines before being piped to the consumer as natural gas is today. Researchers are examining an impressive array of storage options with support from the U.S. Department of Energy
Fuel Cells 2000 - Hydrogen Basics

HowStuffWorks "How Fuel Cells Work"

GM, Honda Set Fuel Cell Alliance in Renewed Hydrogen Push - Bloomberg

This is a very good site for keeping up with current progress on hydrogen fuel cells. I am very familiar with this process as it was one of the things I was working on when I retired.

EERE: Fuel Cell Technologies Office Home Page
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
db, not sure how familiar you are with hydrogen fuel cells, so I will give you some basic information and then where we are at in the development. Our biggest challenge right now is finding a really cheap source for producing hydrogen.

They produce no pollutants, they can be used in cars, for homes or in industry. Once they perfect these units, we will no longer need the power grid, all the highly polluting power plants, high voltage overhead lines, etc. In other words, we will no longer have to transmit electricity over large distances. We will be able to manufacture it right on site with no appreciable amount of pollution.



Fuel Cells 2000 - Hydrogen Basics

HowStuffWorks "How Fuel Cells Work"

GM, Honda Set Fuel Cell Alliance in Renewed Hydrogen Push - Bloomberg

This is a very good site for keeping up with current progress on hydrogen fuel cells. I am very familiar with this process as it was one of the things I was working on when I retired.

EERE: Fuel Cell Technologies Office Home Page
And today, hydrogen fuel cells have less real world application than CNG which is frightening.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Cash
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Mikey - good news about the economy

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And today, hydrogen fuel cells have less real world application than CNG which is frightening.
Not sure if I understand you. By CNG, if you are talking about compressed natural gas, it's uses are limitless. Did you see the web-site I posted where GM and Toyota are promising fuel cell cars by 2020?

Truthfully, if it wasn't for the oil and gas companies, I do believe we would be much further ahead in the development of fuel cells.
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