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News & Current Events Discuss US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Mikeyy The policy of resistance is honorable to a point. It certainly is however targeting women and ...

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  #221 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
The policy of resistance is honorable to a point.
It certainly is however targeting women and children is not resistance, it is pure terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Jews used terror to gain the land they now occupy.
I thought they were granted that land as part of UN Resolution 181. Nice revisionism Mikey.

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Do we look at Jews as terrorists? No.
Good. Because they are not. Hamas, as the government of Palestinians in Gaza is.

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Did they murder innocent people to get what they wanted? Yes. Did they get what they wanted. Well, not exactly.
The Jews who conducted terrorism did not as they wished the Arabs all dead.

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But I understand resistance.
No you don't. You believe that lobbing a missile at a civilian town or village is resisting something. The civilians on the land don't pose a threat in any way shape or form so, seems you are once again completely out of the lop.

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I understand the diffuculty in negotiating with people you don't believe have the authority over your home to cut you deals. That ain't that hard to grasp for me.
Then why try to kill them and refuse to acknowledge their right to live and exist?
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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I don't watch your propoganda. It does not move the ball forward. You are stuck on showing Israelis as pure and the Palestinians as evil. I get your view and it does nothing but keep the status quo in place.
How can her view keep the status quo in place when all the Palestinians need do is to remove the destroy Israel at all costs clause from their respective charters to move things forward?
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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Irgun fits the FBI definition. It’s your attempt to exonerate Irgun and it's related groups that is grasping at straws.
""The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.""

Yes, at times they were guilty of carrying out terrorist acts.

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And your point is…..?
Not Palestinians but Israel.

""Israel has been a frequent target of terrorism""

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Hamas is a terrorist organization.
That does not make the Palestinians a terrorist nation since there is NO independent Palestinian nation and, what's more, Hamas does not run the West Bank.
That is correct. My bad. It makes the Palestinians in Gaza a terrorist state.

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Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
Which particular attack? The list is lengthy and most seem to be directed only at civilians.
King David. Deir Yassin was a military operation that turned into a war crime and your list of operations as I stated before certainly has some terrorist actions in it.

So, if you wish to label the now extinct Irgun as terrorists then so be it.

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Too bad that is not the only demand. Nicely disengenius statement.
Yes, it would be nice to gloss over this elephant in the room but, sad to say, it is the key demand and, if Palestinians were actually intent on peace then they would quickly make this right.

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They were never handed anything on a silver platter – the land was not Israel’s to give, much less to give only a portion. At any rate what happened 50 years ago is not relevant. What's relevant is what is happening now and what can be done now to remedy the situation.
Well then, if nothing from the past is relevant then they should all just stay right where they are as per December 2012 borders.

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Reality: and what do you suppose the reality is in the West Bank and Gaza? I doubt it’s much different and certainly far grimmer.
They only need to remove their destruction of Israel from their charters and move ahead with actual peace negotiations.

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None of what you say justifies settlements. The purpose of the settlements IS NOT a military purpose and never has been. Why do you keep perpetrating that lie?

Israel Settlements: Netanyahu Defends Construction In East Jerusalem


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/wo...nt-policy.html
.

No evidence that the rationale for settlement building in occupied territory is for military housing – none what-so-ever. It’s little more than a strategic land grab.



Your wife and kids do not belong there. Military members stationed in combat zones or occupied territories do not need their families with them and they are typically on rotations. This is an incredibly weak excuse.
There's that lack of understanding going on again Coyote. The entire nation is a war zone and, is only a few kilometers wide at it's narrowest point.

Reserves in Israel are people who have a normal job and, a place of duty to report to if the nation is attacked and are not in uniform - ever. Unless they are taking part of their periodic reserve obligation. Other than that, they live with their families, work and play and, are normally given a station close to where they live or, in the cases I point out, places to live are provided for them.

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It’s totally irrelevant whether or not the Palestinians are “close” to fulfilling “key provisions” – it doesn’t change the status of the territory in question.
The issue is not whether it “pisses them off” – it’s an issue of international law regarding occupied territory, and it’s an issue of whether a two state solution will become impossible to negotiate given Israel’s settlement activities.
International law required the Palestinians to adhere to UN Resolution 181 and they did not.
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  #224 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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Originally Posted by Leanworks View Post
""The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.""

Yes, at times they were guilty of carrying out terrorist acts.
No. Not “at times”. According to the Wikipedia list of attacks attributed to Irgun, it would be “much of the time”.

Quote:
Not Palestinians but Israel.

""Israel has been a frequent target of terrorism""
Not Palestinians? Collectively punishing a civilian population for the acts of extremists amongst them certainly fits the definition of “terrorism” with the main difference being terrorism is typically the tactic of the weak while collective punishment is the tactic of the powerful.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
/wiki/Collective_punishment#In_the_Israeli.2FPalestinian _conflict
Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where such attacks have occurred).


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That is correct. My bad. It makes the Palestinians in Gaza a terrorist state.
That requires them to first have a state (at which point I would expect them to be held fully accountable for their actions and be subject to repercussions if they choose the path of terrorism).

Quote:
King David. Deir Yassin was a military operation that turned into a war crime and your list of operations as I stated before certainly has some terrorist actions in it.

So, if you wish to label the now extinct Irgun as terrorists then so be it.
They are not exactly extinct. They evolved into the Likud party and their members became prime ministers and other top officials. Once they gained a legitimate state they could afford to renounce terrorism but their tactics against the Palestinians haven't exactly changed - they've simply been sanctioned under the guise of self-defense.

King David is highly controversial and there is enough evidence contradicting the “official narrative” to cast doubt on it’s being solely hit as a military target – at best, there was no care for the civilians in and around the area. Ironically – folks are rightly outraged when Palestinian terrorists celebrate their bombings but the King David is commerated.


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Yes, it would be nice to gloss over this elephant in the room but, sad to say, it is the key demand and, if Palestinians were actually intent on peace then they would quickly make this right.
It is one of many demands, so, how about a little accuracy? I am sure you are not naďve enough to think that Israel will then give the Palestinians a viable state or dismantle settlements once that is done? I agree fully – the Palestinians must recognize Israel’s right to exist as a state, I’ve never said otherwise. But that is by far not their only demand and your insistence over and over, that that is all the Palestinians need to do is either outright dishonest or disengenius.

Do you think Israel should recognize the Palestinians right to exist as a state?

Mutual recognition would certainly start the process forward.

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Well then, if nothing from the past is relevant then they should all just stay right where they are as per December 2012 borders.
Who said nothing from the past is relevant? Another strawman in the making?

Legal borders are relevant to the situation now as they provide a starting point in any negotiations under modern concepts of nations What where the last set of borders recognized under international law?

Quote:
They only need to remove their destruction of Israel from their charters and move ahead with actual peace negotiations.
And Israel need only stop it’s settlement building

Quote:
There's that lack of understanding going on again Coyote. The entire nation is a war zone and, is only a few kilometers wide at it's narrowest point.
Reserves in Israel are people who have a normal job and, a place of duty to report to if the nation is attacked and are not in uniform - ever. Unless they are taking part of their periodic reserve obligation. Other than that, they live with their families, work and play and, are normally given a station close to where they live or, in the cases I point out, places to live are provided for them.
Oh, no…there’s no lack of understanding, at least no on my part

They can live with their families in non-occupied territories. Simple and the way these things are typically handled unless you are intent on stealing land. After all – once settlements are in place, they are rarely dismantled and the political fall out is great.


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International law required the Palestinians to adhere to UN Resolution 181 and they did not.
And how many UN Resolutions has Israel broken?
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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I think Mikeyy gets it. And so do I. And for that matter Saltwyn.

She posted this link that is largely ignored, about this "generous" offer from Israel. Here's part of it: The Myth of the Generous Offer ? FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting





Seriously - is this generous???? Why should the Palestinians have accepted this?
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  #226 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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No. Not “at times”. According to the Wikipedia list of attacks attributed to Irgun, it would be “much of the time”.
According to the numbers it was some of the time.

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Not Palestinians? Collectively punishing a civilian population for the acts of extremists amongst them certainly fits the definition of “terrorism” with the main difference being terrorism is typically the tactic of the weak while collective punishment is the tactic of the powerful.
How can one inflict collective punishment when they are acting under Article 51 and obeying the rules of distinction and proportionality?

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Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
/wiki/Collective_punishment#In_the_Israeli.2FPalestinian _conflict
Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying whole towns and villages where such attacks have occurred).
So who has been punished because of the actions of certain individuals?

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That requires them to first have a state (at which point I would expect them to be held fully accountable for their actions and be subject to repercussions if they choose the path of terrorism).
Well then, hold them responsible as they have a state as of November 29 2012.

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They are not exactly extinct. They evolved into the Likud party and their members became prime ministers and other top officials. Once they gained a legitimate state they could afford to renounce terrorism but their tactics against the Palestinians haven't exactly changed - they've simply been sanctioned under the guise of self-defense.
Sort of like the PA huh?

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King David is highly controversial and there is enough evidence contradicting the “official narrative” to cast doubt on it’s being solely hit as a military target – at best, there was no care for the civilians in and around the area. Ironically – folks are rightly outraged when Palestinian terrorists celebrate their bombings but the King David is commerated.
If not the British Military Headquarters then what was the purpose please, to shake up the Hotel staff?.

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It is one of many demands, so, how about a little accuracy?
Sure. There is no sense whatsoever negotiating with somebody who has vowed to kill you even if you give them everything they wish except your death.

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I am sure you are not naďve enough to think that Israel will then give the Palestinians a viable state or dismantle settlements once that is done? I agree fully – the Palestinians must recognize Israel’s right to exist as a state, I’ve never said otherwise. But that is by far not their only demand and your insistence over and over, that that is all the Palestinians need to do is either outright dishonest or disengenius.
I have no idea but, I can assure you that there will be no meaningful negotiations on anything until this caveat is taken off their charters.

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Do you think Israel should recognize the Palestinians right to exist as a state?
I do but they won't as their position is that the destruction of Israel must be taken off the charters and, negotiations should take place in Jerusalem rather than in world bodies.

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Mutual recognition would certainly start the process forward.
And a great logical start would be for one side to cease with the vow to destroy the other wouldn't you agree?

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Who said nothing from the past is relevant? Another strawman in the making?
You did. You said "" At any rate what happened 50 years ago is not relevant.""

Golly man, it was only a couple of posts ago for crying out loud. Try to stay with me on this.

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Legal borders are relevant to the situation now as they provide a starting point in any negotiations under modern concepts of nations What where the last set of borders recognized under international law?
The starting point is to not vow to kill the other guy as your prime mission. Once that is thrown out the window then the two sides can sit down and talk like normal people.

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And Israel need only stop it’s settlement building
That would be something that would be a legitimate concern once their destruction was taken off the table.

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Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
Oh, no…there’s no lack of understanding, at least no on my part

They can live with their families in non-occupied territories. Simple and the way these things are typically handled unless you are intent on stealing land. After all – once settlements are in place, they are rarely dismantled and the political fall out is great.
How do they live with their families in non occupied territories fifty miles away and be ready to report to their place of duty within minutes if the balloon goes up? As I said, Israel is a small place and, it can be cut in two very quickly which means soldiers (civilians) need to be within a few minutes of their duty station every day of the year.

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And how many UN Resolutions has Israel broken?
181 was a rather significant one which all others pale in comparison. You should look it up sometime.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

Around and around and around and you wonder why it stays the same.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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Around and around and around and you wonder why it stays the same.
I don't wonder at all Mikey. Either do Israelis who enjoy a vibrant productive society and life.

As for why it does, when somebody has vowed to kill you reguardless of what you give them or what you do for them then there is no sense in even thinking about talking to them hence, no progress of any kind is made. And shills like some here who can't deal with that, won't read or familiarize themselves with things like UN Resolutions, charters, jus ad bellum, anti-terror laws, current events, UN Charter, rules of proportionality, and find themselves unfamiliar with terms such as 'retorsion' yet feel qualified to moo 'collective punishment while not even familiar with the background criteria for it to be that bleat blindly with conviction.

These are the useful idiots every Israeli woman, child and civilian are targeted for death for by Hamas and the PA in their charters and, why they deliberately use their own people as human shields in the hopes a dead body will be the result to show those same idiots. Their international audience per se.

With a cycle of deliberate and innocent death as well as an uninformed hand wringing international echo chamber herd, they have everything they need to keep them going in their hell for a few more generations.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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I don't wonder at all Mikey. Either do Israelis who enjoy a vibrant productive society and life.

As for why it does, when somebody has vowed to kill you reguardless of what you give them or what you do for them then there is no sense in even thinking about talking to them hence, no progress of any kind is made. And shills like some here who can't deal with that, won't read or familiarize themselves with things like UN Resolutions, charters, jus ad bellum, anti-terror laws, current events, UN Charter, rules of proportionality, and find themselves unfamiliar with terms such as 'retorsion' yet feel qualified to moo 'collective punishment while not even familiar with the background criteria for it to be that bleat blindly with conviction.

These are the useful idiots every Israeli woman, child and civilian are targeted for death for by Hamas and the PA in their charters and, why they deliberately use their own people as human shields in the hopes a dead body will be the result to show those same idiots. Their international audience per se.

With a cycle of deliberate and innocent death as well as an uninformed hand wringing international echo chamber herd, they have everything they need to keep them going in their hell for a few more generations.
Why do you suppose public opinion is turning toward the Palestinian cause all around the world? Here as well? Do you think we are all just stupid? The majority of the people of the planet?
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: US slams Israel's decision to expand settlements

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Why do you suppose public opinion is turning toward the Palestinian cause all around the world? Here as well? Do you think we are all just stupid? The majority of the people of the planet?
Ummmm...................




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