Originally Posted by Kizzume

You're saying that what Muslims do in countries where Islam is the law does not reflect Islam as a whole and cannot be used to judge Islam in any way whatsoever.


Name a Muslim-majority country that doesn't have an oppressive and barbaric culture. Name a commonly practiced religion besides Islam that is also a type of government.

Originally Posted by Coyote

No. YOU are saying that.

Islam, is as diverse as it's elements - like any major religion. If you are going to judge it as a whole - what elements are you going to use? Which traditions? Which histories? They're all Islam and the religion differs in how it is practiced and what aspects are followed around the world. Christianity is much the same. If you want to judge it - what do you CHOOSE to judge it by?



For your first question: There is no country I know of that has had a religiously influenced government and a system of law that includes religious law that is not oppressive and barbaric. In the world today almost all of those countries are Islamic.

Second: Historically, Christianity has also been a type of government. The king was head of church and state and the church made laws. In some societies the idea of a heavenly kingdom on earth was taken literally.


Christianity started out as an oppressive barbaric culture. It has reformed many of it's elements through a process of reformation and also because it's main adherents reside in western countries that are largely secular with a decent system of justice and human rights. I know you are going to say "but that was history" - that is the automatic disclaimer when ever history is brought up but history brought us to where we are now and you can't make an argument in a vacuum.

Islam has not had it's reformation and when Christianity began a turn in one direction (?600 years ago) - Islam made a fundamentalist turn that turned it from a culture that embraced enlightenment and science during the Christian dark ages to a narrow and culturally stagnent society. In order to exist in the modern world, particularly it HAS to reform. Given how it is practiced in non Middle East/African cultures, it is happening but, if the history of religious reformation is anything to go by, it will be a rocky road that's been traveled before.

Originally Posted by Coyote

I'm answering your questions, perhaps you could answer mine:

Show me the mass demonstrations here over insults to Mohammed.

Originally Posted by Coyote

Were those cartoons here? We aren't talking about reactions to cartoons in other countries but mainstream subway adds HERE in a supposedly civilized and tolerant country.

Originally Posted by Kizzume

I was showing that even IN other countries, Jews don't make a big deal about their religion being criticized.

Originally Posted by Kizzume

There haven't been any here. So what.

Originally Posted by Kizzume

At least you're admitting that much of Islam is a couple hundred years behind. That's a big step towards seeing the light of the other side.

Originally Posted by Coyote

I've always stated that.



In this era of globalization, mass media and a dominant secular culture it won't. But it still won't be instantaneious and it's arrogant to assume that there is nothing in their culture of value to preserve. Just as an example - the Arab Spring. How it pans out depends on what country. But the argument seems to be "see what happens when you let them have democracy" - pretty effing arrogant nor is it a "special priveledge" because it's the same priveledge we fought for. Our democracy was violent, bloody, intolerant but eventually acheived a successful balance. They have the same right to achieve what will eventually work for them. In the meantime, the rest of the world has the right to apply pressures through trade, diplomacy, even at time military to maintain stability, prevent human rights abuses and encourage the cultural institutions that are conducive to democratic forms of government.

Originally Posted by Coyote

....peace and forgiveness is a part of Islam if one chooses to read those parts and take them in

Originally Posted by Coyote

That is totally missing the point of the argument. It has nothing to do with the issue except to redirect the argument.