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News & Current Events Discuss Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman at the General Forum; Originally Posted by cnredd Correct... This is NOT a "black and white" issue... The MSM and the Left (redundancy alert) ...

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Correct...

This is NOT a "black and white" issue...

The MSM and the Left (redundancy alert) ask the question "Is waterboarding torture?" with the options of "yes" or "no"...This is misleading...

The actual answer is "neither"..

The Right (I'm generalizing here) believes that waterboarding is 99% torture with the RARE exception that experts are using the process for attempting to gain information which will save lives and NOT used for punishment or nefarious measures...

Waterboarding for revenge is 100% wrong in ALL cases...

Waterboarding performed by people who are not professional in the process is 100% in ALL cases...

Waterboarding without medical personnel monitoring is 100% wrong in ALL cases...

But if you remove these three instances and the process is performed with the SOLE intention of seeing if vital information can be extracted which will ultimately save lives should be allowable (and encouraged)...The Right fully understands it's not a foolproof measure but will still accept it if the chances of preventing mass destruction increases from 2% to 4%...
Let's start with the fact that he didn't say... "I'm not against waterboarding" ....now did he?

Nope, he said... "I'm not against torture.........

Since you want to generalize, why is it that those on the right seem to have no problem suspending those values that made this country great...when it fits their purpose?

Even with just waterboarding (much less more violent forms of torture), there are plenty of experts that say it doesn't work and can actually create terrorists.

Here's one of them.

Click Here

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Writing under the pseudonym of Matthew Alexander, a former special intelligence operations officer, who in 1996 led an interrogations team in Iraq, has written a compelling book where he details his direct experience with torture practices. He conducted more than 300 interrogations and supervised more than a thousand and was awarded a Bronze Star for his achievements in Iraq. Alexander's nonviolent interrogation methods led Special Forces to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

His new book is titled "How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq."

"It's extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters.

"When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained.

"The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members."


Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information.


I personally believe that those who want so desperately to justify waterboarding as not being torture (and especially those who have no problem with torture in general), should be made to undergo it......so they can confirm their position.






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Old 11-20-2011, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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I personally believe that those who want so desperately to justify waterboarding as not being torture (and especially those who have no problem with torture in general), should be made to undergo it......so they can confirm their position.
Whaa--surely you don't think I want people who are about to have torture applied to them to give up their right to self-defense, do you? I'm not uncivilized!
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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I'm not against torture......
How do you feel about torturing the innocent, or murder through torture? The Bush administration did both.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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Waterboarded over ice cream?!

I wonder if it was Rocky Road?



Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman CBS Atlanta
Since I was a nursing asst. for several years, and had a lot of eldery in my care, I find it very disheartening and disgusting that many we trust with the care of our loved ones are not trustworthy to say the least. It amazes me as to the people that get hired only to discover they are abusive individuals and have no business working with those less capable of taking care of themselves. I find nothing funny about this and it makes me nauseous just thinking about it.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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How do you feel about torturing the innocent, or murder through torture?
If they didn't really deserve it, they wouldn't have been tortured/murdered.






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Old 11-20-2011, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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How do you feel about torturing the innocent, or murder through torture? The Bush administration did both.
I need to know a reason. Say, for example, the man was poking fun at Obama's big ears, or Michelle's big ass and butt-ugly scowl. Heck. That's no reason. Say, for example, the man was caught red-handed placing a real explosive device in some building, with a note in plain sight that said, "There are one hundred more of these time bombs planted all over the country, and they are all dirty bombs. HA HA!" Is he innocent until found guilty in a court of law, or should the facts be extracted from him somehow?
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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I need to know a reason. Say, for example, the man was poking fun at Obama's big ears, or Michelle's big ass and butt-ugly scowl. Heck. That's no reason. Say, for example, the man was caught red-handed placing a real explosive device in some building, with a note in plain sight that said, "There are one hundred more of these time bombs planted all over the country, and they are all dirty bombs. HA HA!" Is he innocent until found guilty in a court of law, or should the facts be extracted from him somehow?
Start with Dilawar, an innocent Afghan taxi driver whom we tortured to death. There are many more similar examples of innocent people we tortured, and they're a necessary consequence of using torture in a foolish attempt to extract information.

An even more consequential example is the torture of Ibn al Shaykh al Libi, from whom we extracted a false confession under torture and then used that false confession to justify our illegal invasion of Iraq. Lots of people died as a result of that willingness to use torture.

FYI, our SERE program started in the 1950s as an attempt to counter the anti-US propaganda which derived from false confessions extracted under torture. Apparently we knew back then that torture wasn't a good way to get reliable information, which is why real interrogators consistently condemn its use (apart from it being illegal under US and international law). It's also why the men Bush authorized to use torture techniques like waterboarding had no experience in interrogation. Literally, the two men primarily responsible for Bush's torture program and who apparently did the waterboarding - Bruce Jessen and James Mitchell - had no experience in interrogation whatsoever.

If you're concerned about wasting precious time in a hypothetical "ticking bomb" scenario (a situation that only happens in movies), the last thing you should want to do is use a tactic which results in unreliable information or false confessions. As FBI director Mueller stated under oath to Congress, none of the leads generated from CIA torture resulted in the discovery of any plots - all it did was waste thousands of hours of the precious time of investigators.

Last edited by skrekk; 11-20-2011 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

What hypothetical situation are you addressing? All scenarios that have not happened are hypothetical. In any case, I guess extraction of any information is out the window. Let's just nurse our wounds and bury the dead if a catastrophe occurs and we did nothing but cave in to the "caught red-handed" terrorist's civil rights.
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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In any case, I guess extraction of any information is out the window.
Who made that claim? I sure didn't.

As I said earlier, real interrogators don't use torture and condemn its use. Google "Matthew Alexander", "Ali Soufan" or "Sherwood Moran" if you want to learn why they don't use torture.
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Police: 2 Georgia Caregivers Waterboard 89-Year-Old Woman

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Who made that claim? I sure didn't.

As I said earlier, real interrogators don't use torture and condemn its use. Google "Matthew Alexander", "Ali Soufan" or "Sherwood Moran" if you want to learn why they don't use torture.
Okay. So, can I make the call that you say it is okay for a professional interrogator to extract the information from the terrorist, given a 12 hour window?

By the way, you pick either extraction of information is out the window, or it is okay. There is no in between.
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