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News & Current Events Discuss ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown at the General Forum; To no one, and everyone. As Lizzie pointed out, if he had really wanted to die, he wouldn't have been ...

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Old 06-02-2011, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

To no one, and everyone.

As Lizzie pointed out, if he had really wanted to die, he wouldn't have been standing there for an hour in a public place.

As Sunwest noted, we've all had knee-jerk reactions to a horrifying day, that in retrospect we would have handled differently.

Rivrrat is correct also, if someone really wants to exit this world, IMO that we should allow them too. But To not even go out to the guy and talk to him, see if he truly wants this to happen?

But with professionals on the scene, who are using TRAINING AND POLICY as the reason they did not attempt to assist the man, I am horrified. Your job is worth another persons life? The video says that even TRAINED crew were told they were not to enter the water, how can you put your job above the life of a person? As a civilian, people standing around WATCHING for ****s sake, doing nothing.

I cannot accept this.
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
To no one, and everyone.

As Lizzie pointed out, if he had really wanted to die, he wouldn't have been standing there for an hour in a public place.

As Sunwest noted, we've all had knee-jerk reactions to a horrifying day, that in retrospect we would have handled differently.

Rivrrat is correct also, if someone really wants to exit this world, IMO that we should allow them too. But To not even go out to the guy and talk to him, see if he truly wants this to happen?

But with professionals on the scene, who are using TRAINING AND POLICY as the reason they did not attempt to assist the man, I am horrified. Your job is worth another persons life? The video says that even TRAINED crew were told they were not to enter the water, how can you put your job above the life of a person? As a civilian, people standing around WATCHING for ****s sake, doing nothing.

I cannot accept this.
Will I be accused of being your cheerleader, if I agree with you?

Regardless.......I think you're right on this one.
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post

But To not even go out to the guy and talk to him, see if he truly wants this to happen?

But with professionals on the scene, who are using TRAINING AND POLICY as the reason they did not attempt to assist the man, I am horrified. Your job is worth another persons life? The video says that even TRAINED crew were told they were not to enter the water, how can you put your job above the life of a person? As a civilian, people standing around WATCHING for ****s sake, doing nothing.

I cannot accept this.
Well, I do understand your point based on a truly emergent situation happening, but this situation doesn't appear to be an emergency. An hour is a long period of time for this scene to have taken place. An emergency which would have prompted action by emergency personnel would have been more akin to someone jumping off a bridge into deep water. Someone standing in water that was too shallow for a rescue boat to enter, and the scene happening for at least an hour doesn't usually elicit emergency impulses.

We don't have the priviledge of having been on the scene, but I would venture a guess that people did try to talk to the guy and coax him to seek help. When someone is in an unstable psychological state, but is able to stand and wait, he could easily have been a danger to others besides himself. If I had been present in a situation like this, I would not have gone to persue the guy, but I would have called a suicide hotline to see if they had a resource person that could come to the scene. I would never have gone out to the guy and assumed that he wouldn't have tried to pull me under water or otherwise harmed me. He was obviously not in a rational state of mind, but he wasn't helpless either.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
To no one, and everyone.

As Lizzie pointed out, if he had really wanted to die, he wouldn't have been standing there for an hour in a public place.

As Sunwest noted, we've all had knee-jerk reactions to a horrifying day, that in retrospect we would have handled differently.

Rivrrat is correct also, if someone really wants to exit this world, IMO that we should allow them too. But To not even go out to the guy and talk to him, see if he truly wants this to happen?

But with professionals on the scene, who are using TRAINING AND POLICY as the reason they did not attempt to assist the man, I am horrified. Your job is worth another persons life? The video says that even TRAINED crew were told they were not to enter the water, how can you put your job above the life of a person? As a civilian, people standing around WATCHING for ****s sake, doing nothing.

I cannot accept this.
If you were talking about a truly emergency situation with an actual victim, yes I would agree with you.

But this was not an emergency, and there was no victim. So yes, I would weigh the risks (to my life, my job, etc) quite heavily before trying to "save" someone who wants to die.

I've had training for water rescues, quite a bit of it actually, for various situations. And while water rescues can be dangerous for the rescuer when the person is an accidental victim, they could be extremely dangerous for the rescuer if the person in question actually wants to die. You don't know if that person has a weapon or not. Or if they're going to grab the first person that comes out and do their damndest to take them down with them. You expect a panicked person to try and shove the rescuer under, but a rescuer may not expect it from a person who is just casually and calmly standing in the water.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to drag a grown man to the shore while he's kicking and screaming, fighting you all the way? With no equipment? Not to mention, no training!

From what the article said, the rescue personnel did NOT have water rescue training. And there were 75 bystanders there. Why didn't any one of THEM jump in the water? They admonish the fire and police for not jumping in (in the video) when they had an hour to do it themselves. No, the bystanders weren't trained, but neither were the fire and police.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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I am very familiar with suicide up close and personal. If someone really wants to die, they don't stand in the water in front of a crowd. They give no warning- they go about it methodically and with purpose.
Well said. Public suicide attempts are usually a cry for help, not a way to end your life. In this case, the cry was ignored. If he truly wanted to kill himself and was absolutely resolute in that decision, he wouldn't have done it in a venue where he could have been stopped. Even the article mentions that he kept edging out into the water looking back occasionally. I don't swim, but I can GUARANTEE you that had I been there, I would have grabbed some folks to go with me and waded in after him. From everything I read, he was looking for help and when he didn't get any, he followed through on the threat of suicide.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:25 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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He had a good hour to think about it. It was HIS decision, and no one elses. Sad? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know his pain or his life. What I do know is that he wanted to die, and he did. His choice.
I think you're wrong. I don't think he wanted to die, I think he wanted help and this was his screwed up way of trying to get that help. Unfortunately, the people there turned their backs on him.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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I think you're wrong. I don't think he wanted to die, I think he wanted help and this was his screwed up way of trying to get that help. Unfortunately, the people there turned their backs on him.
I have no sympathy for him. He willingly walked out into the water and willingly stayed there for an hour. He is responsible for his own death. If he didn't want to die, then he probably shouldn't have killed himself.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:58 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
I am very familiar with suicide up close and personal. If someone really wants to die, they don't stand in the water in front of a crowd. They give no warning- they go about it methodically and with purpose.
My point exactly. This man was looking for a reason to live, not to die. He was wanting someone to validate that his existence was of worth. No one was willing to do that, so he went under. That's the sad part.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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I have no sympathy for him. He willingly walked out into the water and willingly stayed there for an hour. He is responsible for his own death. If he didn't want to die, then he probably shouldn't have killed himself.
Like many, there was a time in my younger life when a bullet seemed to be the best option. I was fortunate enough to have people around me who were there to tell me, the sun will come up tomorrow, and you will see things differently.

I think I've made a positive impact on this world (for the most part). An impact that would have never been know had those around me simply stood by and watched as I was drowning.

If someone truly wants to die, they will die. They rest of those who cut their wrists in a non-lethal manner, are simply wanting someone else to tell them their life has meaning.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: ‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
If you were talking about a truly emergency situation with an actual victim, yes I would agree with you.

But this was not an emergency, and there was no victim. So yes, I would weigh the risks (to my life, my job, etc) quite heavily before trying to "save" someone who wants to die.

I've had training for water rescues, quite a bit of it actually, for various situations. And while water rescues can be dangerous for the rescuer when the person is an accidental victim, they could be extremely dangerous for the rescuer if the person in question actually wants to die. You don't know if that person has a weapon or not. Or if they're going to grab the first person that comes out and do their damndest to take them down with them. You expect a panicked person to try and shove the rescuer under, but a rescuer may not expect it from a person who is just casually and calmly standing in the water.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to drag a grown man to the shore while he's kicking and screaming, fighting you all the way? With no equipment? Not to mention, no training!

From what the article said, the rescue personnel did NOT have water rescue training. And there were 75 bystanders there. Why didn't any one of THEM jump in the water? They admonish the fire and police for not jumping in (in the video) when they had an hour to do it themselves. No, the bystanders weren't trained, but neither were the fire and police.
You are correct in your statement about how dangerous a water rescue is, I am aware of that (basic lifeguard training 35 years ago). I'm not saying they should have physically overwhelmed him and forced him out, but how about wading in after him, staying out of lunge's reach, and 'talking him down'? It's a one on one thing, yelling from the beach doesn't cut it IMO.

According to the video, some of the crew DID have training, but were told NOT to go in the water due to budgetary constraints???

I hold the bystanders responsible also, as one woman said in the video 'We just stood there and watched. We didn't do anything' in a horrified voice.

I could not justifiably lay this on my conscience, if I didn't even TRY.
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