Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > News & Current Events
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

News & Current Events Discuss Report: 121 veterans linked to killings at the General Forum; NEW YORK - At least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed a killing or been charged in one ...

Reply
 
LinkBack (1) Thread Tools Display Modes
  1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2008, 12:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Arkansas
Gender: Male
Posts: 579
Thanks: 239
Thanked 198 Times in 135 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Yagmi
Default Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
NEW YORK - At least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed a killing or been charged in one in the United States after returning from combat, The New York Times reported Sunday.

The newspaper said it also logged 349 homicides involving all active-duty military personnel and new veterans in the six years since military action began in Afghanistan, and later Iraq. That represents an 89-percent increase over the previous six-year period, the newspaper said.

About three-quarters of those homicides involved Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans, the newspaper said. The report did not illuminate the exact relationship between those cases and the 121 killings also mentioned in the report.

The newspaper said its research involved searching local news reports, examining police, court and military records and interviewing defendants, their lawyers and families, victims' families and military and law enforcement officials.

Report: 121 veterans linked to killings - Yahoo! News
This is a shame really.....

Last edited by Yagmi; 01-13-2008 at 01:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2008, 04:30 PM
fxashun's Avatar
SIMPLETON
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ga
Gender: Male
Posts: 484
Thanks: 64
Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagmi View Post
This is a shame really.....
When you train a man to kill people, send him into combat where he actually sees his buddies die and has to kill or be killed, you have to expect that will cause a certain amount of trauma. As a Marine, I was trained to take lives in combat. Under the right circumstances I would be able to kill a man and not think twice about it. And I never went into combat. I couldn't imagine the anger a person would feel riding in a convoy and watching a HUMVEE disintegrate in front of you. Or seeing a guy get hit by sniper fire and having his brains on your uniform. Oh hell yeah there are gonna be some "F"'d up people getting out of the service for years to come. This is just a tip of the iceberg.
__________________
Even if you hold the minority opinion, stick to your guns and go against the flow if that's what you truly believe. (CnRedd)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008, 02:57 AM
One
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Central Florida
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,436
Thanks: 210
Thanked 164 Times in 148 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

A side note to this:

In WWII (or maybe it was WWI) it was discovered that if you trained soldiers to shoot at a round bullseye target that when it came time to shoot a person they had a very large % that would "freeze". The solution was to use the now common silhouette type targets. The % dropped immediately.

I am somewhat curious about the same stats from other wars.

And motives involved.

Also 121 from a pool of about 2 million?
__________________
"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively and without self delusion---In the long run these are the only people that count."Robert Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008, 06:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Arkansas
Gender: Male
Posts: 579
Thanks: 239
Thanked 198 Times in 135 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Yagmi
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
When you train a man to kill people, send him into combat where he actually sees his buddies die and has to kill or be killed, you have to expect that will cause a certain amount of trauma. As a Marine, I was trained to take lives in combat. Under the right circumstances I would be able to kill a man and not think twice about it. And I never went into combat. I couldn't imagine the anger a person would feel riding in a convoy and watching a HUMVEE disintegrate in front of you. Or seeing a guy get hit by sniper fire and having his brains on your uniform. Oh hell yeah there are gonna be some "F"'d up people getting out of the service for years to come. This is just a tip of the iceberg.

My point exactly.. It is a shame what the war has done to these individuals...

PS... I was in the military too... and seen plenty...
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 71
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Pecentage wise I would like to see how this rates against the general population.

Our vets from the Persian Gulf War, Iraq and Afghanistan are at higher risk of committing suicide. It is still violence, but turned inward. Both killing others and suicides are most like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder drive stats. There are long waiting lists for treatment of PTSD. There is one story I posted at another board of a guy that was on a waiting list for over year while hearing voices and seriously abusing drugs. He committed suicide.

We need to treat the cause, PTSD. And that treament needs to be ASAP.

I will not criticize the VA medical staff, as they are doing the best they can. However, they lack the resources to respond appropriately to this problem. I will blame Bush Republicans and Bush for a cavalier attitude about sending troops into combat with seemingly little interest in them after they have served their political purpose (although its nice to have vets dressed in uniforms for campaign photos shaking hands with them).
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2008, 02:12 PM
crazyflamingos's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alabama
Gender: Female
Posts: 891
Thanks: 1,916
Thanked 370 Times in 249 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagmi View Post
My point exactly.. It is a shame what the war has done to these individuals...

PS... I was in the military too... and seen plenty...

I remember seeing on PBS interviews of women whose husbands had served in WWII and came home more violent than when they left. One woman, in particular, I remember saying that their marriage ended in divorce because she feared for the safety of herself and their children. She also said that her husband had never raised a hand to her before his military service.

I think that some people are simply not able to separate themselves from what they had to do in combat situations and end up resorting to violence in ordinary day-to-day situations.
__________________
Jesus Was A Liberal

If a certain course of action makes the mouth-breathers furious, then that’s a good policy. – The Practical Environmentalist
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2008, 06:40 PM
cnredd's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,951
Thanks: 216
Thanked 2,157 Times in 1,610 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMike View Post
Pecentage wise I would like to see how this rates against the general population.
And awayyyyy we go!...

The Wacko-Vet Myth
Quote:
IN A PAGE-ONE STORY published Sunday, January 13, 2008, "Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles," the New York Times reported on homicides by veterans of the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seven Times reporters contributed to the lengthy story, which was co-authored by Deborah Sontag and Lizette Alvarez.

The Times "found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war." All but one case involved male veterans. They speculated that their research "most likely uncovered only the minimum number of such cases, given that not all killings" were "reported publicly or in detail," and because "it was often not possible to determine the deployment history of other service members arrested on homicide charges."

The Times cited experts including Robert Jay Lifton, a lecturer in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who "used to run 'rap groups' for Vietnam veterans and fought to earn recognition for what became known as post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD." The story noted that numerous "studies on the problems of Vietnam veterans have established links between combat trauma and higher rates of unemployment, homelessness, gun ownership, child abuse, domestic violence, substance abuse--and criminality." It also quoted criminologist Lawrence W. Sherman: "The real tragedy in these veterans' cases is that, where PTSD is a factor, it is highly treatable. . . . And when people are exposed to serious trauma and don't get it treated, it is a
serious risk factor for violence."

True, but that is hardly news to the Veterans Administration (VA), or to the Times. On October 11, 2006, the Times ran a story by Scott Shane, "Data Suggests Vast Costs Loom in Disability Claims." It reported that 567,000 veterans had been discharged to that point, 30,000 of whom had sought treatment at VA facilities for PTSD. In November 2006, the VA issued a fact sheet on services for returning combat veterans: "About one-third of these combat veterans who seek care from VA have a possible diagnosis of a mental disorder . . . including PTSD. . . . Since the war began, VA has activated dozens of new PTSD programs around the country to assist veterans in dealing with the emotional toll of combat. . . . Studies of PTSD patients in general have suggested as many as half may enjoy complete remission and the majority of the remainder will improve."..

..."Given that many veterans rebound successfully from their war experiences and some flourish as a result of them," Sontag and Alvarez observe, "veterans groups have long deplored the attention paid to the minority of soldiers who fail to readjust to civilian life." "Clearly," they aver, "committing homicide is an extreme manifestation of dysfunction for returning veterans, many of whom struggle in quieter ways."

This "extreme manifestation" is indeed extremely rare. The Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) and other veterans' advocacy groups are absolutely correct that not merely "many" but the vast majority of veterans not only remain completely law-abiding but go on to lead stable and productive personal, professional, and civic lives. Assuming 121 homicide cases in relation to 749,932 total discharges through 2007, 99.98 percent of all discharged Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have not committed or been charged with homicide.

And assuming 121 cases and 749,932 total discharges, the homicide offending rate for the discharged veterans would be 16.1 per 100,000. The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) has demographic data aplenty on homicide offending rates. For instance, in 2005, for white males aged 18-24, the rate was about 20 per 100,000. The Times opined that 121 was the "minimum" number, even as it counted veterans charged but not convicted with veterans tried and found guilty. Doubling the number to 242 would double the rate to 32.2 per 100,000.

Such crude but contextualizing calculations aside, the right question to ask is whether the veterans, other things being equal (controlling for age, race, gender, education, income, prior criminal history, and other variables), offend at rates that are significantly different from otherwise comparable groups (including groups that have an extreme PTSD incidence). Without doing the relevant statistical (multiple-regression) analyses with all the requisite empirical data, it is impossible to say.

In April 2007, BJS issued a detailed report showing that veterans were half as likely as non-veterans to be in prison, but that was explained mainly by the fact that two-thirds of male veterans in the population at large were aged 55 or older (older people are less likely to be found behind bars). The incarcerated veterans were somewhat more likely than incarcerated non-veterans to have committed violent crimes, and far more likely to have committed violent crimes against females or minors. There is, however, no evidence at all that ex-military personnel, including veterans who served in combat theatres and saw action, figure significantly or disproportionately in murder, rape, robbery, burglary, or property crimes.
__________________
"You get the respect that you give" - cnredd
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to cnredd For This Useful Post:
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2008, 10:33 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 71
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Well, when I came back from Nam, I was outraged with what I saw. I joined a program as a counselor, vets serving vets. We had a free medical clinic, detox center, and hotlines counseling. I even went out on overdose emergencies. I was at the heart of Nam vets going homeless and crazy. What I saw and experienced was all you had to do was to be there for them and hear them out. On the other hand, we lost too many vets to overdose or suicide (in that specific order). Most of the guys I dealt with were a higher risk to do violence on themselves instead of others. All it takes is some listening skills, and regaurding them as human beings.

If anyone had the bright idea of hiring vets to deal with vets, we could bring down the number of homicides and suicide.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2008, 05:00 AM
cnredd's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,951
Thanks: 216
Thanked 2,157 Times in 1,610 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMike View Post
Well, when I came back from Nam, I was outraged with what I saw. I joined a program as a counselor, vets serving vets. We had a free medical clinic, detox center, and hotlines counseling. I even went out on overdose emergencies. I was at the heart of Nam vets going homeless and crazy. What I saw and experienced was all you had to do was to be there for them and hear them out. On the other hand, we lost too many vets to overdose or suicide (in that specific order). Most of the guys I dealt with were a higher risk to do violence on themselves instead of others. All it takes is some listening skills, and regaurding them as human beings.

If anyone had the bright idea of hiring vets to deal with vets, we could bring down the number of homicides and suicide.
But as shown, the numbers the NYT article were actually lower than the average citizen rate, so although what you've said is true...

1) The same can be said for MANY occupations other than military vets...

2) The way the NYT OMITTED a citizen comparison in an attempt to smear the military should be addressed...
__________________
"You get the respect that you give" - cnredd
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 71
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Report: 121 veterans linked to killings

I agree, the article is deceptive in leaving out the national and/or state average in comparison to vets. And any newspaper representing New York needs to think about this because New York City has a high rate of homocides and violent crime.

And why are they giving this special attention when one out of three homeless are veterans! That should NOT be happening in America. It is like troops are expendable or disposable. After they serve their purpose, who cares? If we are unwilling to do what's right by our vets, we shouldn't be quagmiring our troops in combat all over the world.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MountainMike For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/news-current-events/1871-report-121-veterans-linked-killings.html
Posted By For Type Date
Political Wrinkles This thread Refback 01-13-2008 04:24 PM

Search Engine Optimization and SEO Tools
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0