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News & Current Events Discuss WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Mr. Vicchio You assume that you are hearing truth. He's all ready admitted to selectively releasing only ...

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Old 12-06-2010, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by Mr. Vicchio View Post
You assume that you are hearing truth. He's all ready admitted to selectively releasing only data he thinks fits his message.

Now he has endangered US National Security and put lives at risk. You have chosen poorly in championing this mans ego fueled evil, and you are tarred by your own lack of judgment.


BBC News - List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

But hey, what do you care about National Security or lives at risk you get to see "lies".
Hmm... I'll have to look into that and see if it's really a national security thing or just another attempt at grasping at straws.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by MrLiberty View Post
, we would rather have the truth
Exactly. Anything built on lies is doomed to fail.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
You are in favor of the release then?
I'm not in favor of the release, but I believe that the truth alway comes out eventually, and I favor a country with government and businesses who don't have the need to be built around fraud and deceit.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Vicchio View Post
You assume that you are hearing truth. He's all ready admitted to selectively releasing only data he thinks fits his message.

Now he has endangered US National Security and put lives at risk. You have chosen poorly in championing this mans ego fueled evil, and you are tarred by your own lack of judgment.


BBC News - List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

But hey, what do you care about National Security or lives at risk you get to see "lies".
Okay, looked into it. And all of those facilities were public knowledge. They were not secret, hidden facilities. The only thing Wikileaks "revealed" is that the US considers them important. Sorry, don't see the issue there.

However, I also don't see the importance of releasing that information. It falls into the "who gives a ****" pile of info. No lies revealed. The info neither helps, nor hurts.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
Hmm... I'll have to look into that and see if it's really a national security thing or just another attempt at grasping at straws.
You are the one grasping at straws. You believe that you have some right to know all inter-government going ons at all times. You do not. Our system of Government is a Representative republic. You elect Representatives whom you entrust to oversee these things, in a manner that does not endanger our well being.

We can have a discussion on the short comings of such a system, but your premise is both naive and foolish.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
Okay, looked into it. And all of those facilities were public knowledge. They were not secret, hidden facilities. The only thing Wikileaks "revealed" is that the US considers them important. Sorry, don't see the issue there.

However, I also don't see the importance of releasing that information. It falls into the "who gives a ****" pile of info. No lies revealed. The info neither helps, nor hurts.
Yes again you grasp for a position that is both logical and defensible. While none of these were "secret" locations, their importance to the US Gov't and the US infrastructure range from known to "what? That's important". It is a target list for those who seek to harm our interests.

But you'll never admit that, it would require intellectual honesty.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by Mr. Vicchio View Post
You assume that you are hearing truth. He's all ready admitted to selectively releasing only data he thinks fits his message.
Exactly....and not only that, raw data, without context doesn't give the entire story anyway...
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by Mr. Vicchio View Post
You are the one grasping at straws. You believe that you have some right to know all inter-government going ons at all times. You do not. Our system of Government is a Representative republic. You elect Representatives whom you entrust to oversee these things, in a manner that does not endanger our well being.

We can have a discussion on the short comings of such a system, but your premise is both naive and foolish.
No, I believe that WE have that right as a nation of people that our government represents. And without information as to what in the ****ing hell our government is ACTUALLY doing, we the people cannot make informed decisions about who we want representing us. Our government is built on lies and coverups and it's long since been time for that to change. In the end, the lies and the coverups hurt US. So yes, we DO have the right to know what in the ****ing hell our employees are doing and saying on our behalf. Anyone who thinks otherwise has fallen victim to blindly following authority.

Maybe YOU blindly believe that everything our government does is good and just and truthful. But I do not. Why? Because they've proven time and again the opposite. They've proven time and again that they lie, lie, and then lie some more and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with it. It's time we - their employers - call them on their bull****.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
No, I believe that WE have that right as a nation of people that our government represents. And without information as to what in the ****ing hell our government is ACTUALLY doing, we the people cannot make informed decisions about who we want representing us. Our government is built on lies and coverups and it's long since been time for that to change. In the end, the lies and the coverups hurt US. So yes, we DO have the right to know what in the ****ing hell our employees are doing and saying on our behalf. Anyone who thinks otherwise has fallen victim to blindly following authority.

Maybe YOU blindly believe that everything our government does is good and just and truthful. But I do not. Why? Because they've proven time and again the opposite. They've proven time and again that they lie, lie, and then lie some more and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with it. It's time we - their employers - call them on their bull****.
Well I'm sorry to see you don't get it. You think things would be better everything ever done was known to all in all aspects. That's both childish in it's scope and foolhardy in it's execution. They are NOT your employees, they are employees of the Federal Gov't whom you elect managers (Congressman, Senator's and President) to over see them. If you have a problem with things, it's THERE that you fix it, not with "knowing everything the Gov't does".

No Gov't in the history of the world has ever operated that way, no Gov't COULD operate that way.

While I share your cynicism of Gov't as a general rule, I also understand that there is a way the world works, a way it should work and the two don't always match. Knowing how and where to fix the problem is the difference between wisdom and maturity versus the petulant cried of a child.

The Wikileaks founder, and those that support him are of the latter.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: WikiLeaks Ready to Release Giant 'Insurance' File if Shut Down

There are competing values on this issue that make it at least initially to swallow.

We would like to believe that our nation isn't involved in covert activities. We would like to believe that we are the shining example of clean government and fair relations. We would like to believe that such conduct would inspire the same conduct around the world. This is of course a goal we should strive for over time, but it is an idealistic goal.

We do not live in idealistic times. We cannot trust others to conduct themselves in fair dealings. We cannot trust ourselves to conduct fair dealings. The very idea of secrecy in matters of national security is born out of paranoia (generally justified) and preparedness.

While I would love to read all of the goings on, I think it would be safer to allow those we have charged with our protection to do their job.

Armchair quarterbacking on matters of national security is a dangerous game.
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