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News & Current Events Discuss Clinton: Rich 'Not Paying Their Fair Share' in Taxes at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Billo_Really If you think that is true, then explain why we had 50+ years of no economic ...

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Old 06-15-2010, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Clinton: Rich 'Not Paying Their Fair Share' in Taxes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
If you think that is true, then explain why we had 50+ years of no economic meltdown after the 29 crash and implementation of Glass-Steigall; but not long after Ronnie, Phil Gramm and Slick Willie did their thing, we have another crash?
Wow, your really good pegging 50 years of "prosperity" to Glass-Steagall. Ignore the proximate factors of politically motivated government meddling in the home mortgage market via the CRA and Federal Reserve. Dismiss the reckless and fraudulent activities of Fannie and Freddie, just write them another check for $20 billion in deficit dollars. Blame the greedy bankers, brilliant!

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Iranians couldn't even close Khomeni's coffin, let alone the Strait of Hormuz.
How about a little research on Operation Praying Mantis?
Operation Praying Mantis@Everything2.com

During the Iran vs Iraq war the Iranians would have closed or significantly reduced oil shipments in the straight of Hormuz if not for the US Navy. There is no reason to assume they wouldn't revert to the same tactic if the US adopted an isolationist stance.

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It was public extortion. Don't you remember Bush threatening Congress with martial law if they didn't approve the first bailout?
From the public record I "remember" Senator Obama speaking in favor of TARP and voting for it at a time when he was the odds-on favorite to win the Presidency. Bush the lame-duck President had no leverage to force Obama or the Democrat controlled Congress to do anything.

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Why would they deserve a bonus for not telling warning us about the collapse? How is it they missed all the warning signs, especially the one from Warren Buffet, full year before?
Bush and McCain had sounded the alarm for Fannie and Freddie in 2004. Guess who came to their defense?

“This hearing is about the political lynching of Franklin Raines,” said Congressman William Lacy Clay of Missouri. Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank said, “I see nothing in here that suggests that safety and soundness are an issue.” Other Democrats complained that the mere fact of releasing the report could increase the cost of home-ownership."

Keep in mind this is the same Fannie that cooked the books to give out huge bonuses to its Democrat operative controlled board of directors chaired by Franklin Raines. Will you summon up some of your rightous indignation to call for the prosecution of the Frank Raines gang for cooking the books at Fannie Mae and pocketing millions in bonus money from it? If not, why not?

Quote:
My evidence was the allegations and you only debunked one.
Allegations are not evidence. I provided links to the income statements of both banks disproving your allegation they paid no taxes. A quick look at the banks income statement is all it would take for you to verify your allegations. But, that might cut into your rant.

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If they're given bailout money to jump start the economy, but instead use that money for bonuses, why are you defending them and not us?
They weren't given bailout money. The banks secured Tarp loans with non-voting preferred stock. Avoiding paying another round of dividends on this preferred stock was a major factor motivating the bank to repay the government. The plain facts are the banks fulfilled their obligation to the government regarding the TARP money and repaid it early. Bonuses and compensation in a privately held corporation are a matter for the stockholders to determine, not government regulators.

I am taking our side by defending private property and requiring the government to abide by the terms of its agreements with privately held corporations. You seem to prefer a mafia style government where once they make a loan, the borrower never gets out from under the obligation even if it's repaid in full.

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I don't have anything against their salaries and bonuses, as long as it's not coming from my tax dollars.
In the case of the big banks, they were able to fulfill their TARP obligations while paying salaries and bonuses. They didn't use tax dollars so you have invalidated your own complaint.

You might have a case against AIG paying bonuses. You certainly could make one against Guvmnt Motors (GM) yet Dimocrat anti-corporate populist rhetoric has been mute on these companies for a year or so.

Quote:
Why should we give trillions of tax payer dollars to the very industry that caused the collapse?
We didn't give $ to the big banks, we loaned it to them. The ones that repaid the TARP money cannot be held hostage to the whims of the Dear Leader's political agenda.

We have given around a $100 billion in taxpayer funds to prop up Fannie and Freddie despite their major role in the collapse. Time to retire these New Deal era cesspools of corruption money-pits.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Clinton: Rich 'Not Paying Their Fair Share' in Taxes

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Originally Posted by DivineComedy View Post
If the rich provide 60 -80% of Federal income tax revenue, which still is NOT providing taxes to protect their wealth, what percentage was it in 1980 under my home boy Jimmy Cotter Pin?

{I went to fundraiser in Atlanta in 1976 for Raygun when Howard Jarvis was speaking on Proposition 13, Jesse Helms was there to, and I told Raygun that after four years of Carter they would be begging for him.}

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

Table 3: "Adjusted Gross Income of Taxpayers in Various Income Brackets, 1980-2007 ($ Billions)"

1980 - top 1% = 138 Bottom 50% = 288
2007 - top 1% = 2,008 Bottom 50% = 1,078

I don't understand that, maybe someone can explain it to me. Where is the trickle down?

Table 4, now that is really special.

Maybe someone could explain what it means.
I won't post the entire article (actually it's a response to another article of statistics), but here's the last bit, and I urge you to read the bulk of it to (perhaps) get the meaning you are looking for.
Quote:
……The number of Americans living below the poverty line increased by 28 percent in just ten years, from 24.5 million in 1978 to 32 million in 1988. By then, nearly one in five children was born in poverty in the United States, more than twice as high a proportion as in Canada or Germany….

……..the doctrinal basis of the age of contentment was complete:

needed encouragement for the rich
lower income taxes with no loss of revenue
reduced spending on the poor
and the intellectually impeccable support of Adam Smith.

Grouped together, these doctrines made up what was known as “supply-side economics.”

So far as it had specific content, this meant that economic policy would henceforth be focused not on the factors affecting the flow of aggregate demand in the economy but on those that, by rewarding initiative and therewith production, expanded the economy by increasing the supply of goods and services.

To this end, the rich needed the spur of money, the poor the spur of their own poverty.

In a disturbing interview published in late 1981, Mr. David Stockman, the director of the Office of Management and Budget and by far the most visible economic figure in the first Reagan administration, said that the newly espoused doctrines were simply a serviceable cover story; the actual deeper purpose was to lower taxes on the affluent. Relevant was the already mentioned trickle-down theory – the less than elegant metaphor that if one feeds the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.”
The entire reply explains how this came about.
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  #233 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: Clinton: Rich 'Not Paying Their Fair Share' in Taxes

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Wow, your really good pegging 50 years of "prosperity" to Glass-Steagall. Ignore the proximate factors of politically motivated government meddling in the home mortgage market via the CRA and Federal Reserve. Dismiss the reckless and fraudulent activities of Fannie and Freddie, just write them another check for $20 billion in deficit dollars. Blame the greedy bankers, brilliant!
The majority of default loans were from private lenders, Einstein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
From the public record I "remember" Senator Obama speaking in favor of TARP and voting for it at a time when he was the odds-on favorite to win the Presidency. Bush the lame-duck President had no leverage to force Obama or the Democrat controlled Congress to do anything.
Bush threatened Congress with Martial Law. That is a matter of public record.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:24 AM
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Cool Re: Clinton: Rich 'Not Paying Their Fair Share' in Taxes

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I won't post the entire article (actually it's a response to another article of statistics), but here's the last bit, and I urge you to read the bulk of it to (perhaps) get the meaning you are looking for.

The entire reply explains how this came about.
Look for machinehead61
I bet a lot of people see the chart at the top of the page and ignore anything which might conflict with their flat earth reasoning.

Machinehead61 quoted:

"(In 1980, the chief executive officers of the three hundred largest American companies had incomes twenty-nine times that of the average worker. Ten years later the incomes of the top executives were ninety-three times greater. The income of the average employed American declined slightly in those same years. – Gailbraith p. 55) (John Kenneth Galbraith, The Culture Of Contentment, 1992 p. 103-108)"

JR, after that and some other comment earlier by ajax who said, "the real cause is income disparity, not tax rate" to suggest it is not the share of tax but the share of income (that little bit of wealth we do tax) that can result in a disparity, says: "WE NEED A FLAT TAX"

The topic seems to end when jerry asked:

How about a flat tax on net worth, instead?"

*****

It is more about who has the power to set their own income to match their tax, and pass their burden on, than about who is paying a higher share of one part of overall wealth.

The statistics indicate that the bottom 50% is not keeping up with the top 1%, with regard to Adjusted Gross Income (or that bit of wealth that is taxed).

Whereas I agreed with Reagan that a really high progressive income tax rate penalized invention (actors being an example Reagan gave), who would make a million in one shot and have to work as a carpenter for years waiting for another role, I was not buying a Flat Tax. I was not buying that we should lower taxes when there was no indication whatsoever after the irrational exuberance caused a correction at the end of Clinton that "those we needed for trickle down" were overburdened at all by the tax rates. The so-called Bush Tax Cuts were unnecessary and when left with the treason of the lukewarm "liberal" arts of war in Iraq Democrats (delusional inhuman monsters like solar {Philosophically Handicapped Degree in political science university professor} who said containment was working and Clinton never went to war or invaded Iraq) I had no choice but to vote for the Bush taxes instead of the "war for oil," "unjust war," "wrong war," and "stupid war" of the Obamanation.

*****

Thanks saltwn, I needed that.
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Taxation Charts | Perot Charts - Part 11 This thread Refback 07-08-2010 12:58 PM
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