The definition of "torture" is clear.
The fact that some people can deny the obvious is irrelevant.

Nobody seems to want to touch the definition of torture.
Nobody seems to want to address the fact that it IS "severe pain or suffering".
Nobody wants to address the fact that the intent is "for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession".
It IS TORTURE.


Even on this, I call b.s.
On some level, the proponents of waterboarding recognize the heinous nature of it.

WHY just limit it to JUST THREE individuals?
WHY just limit it to terrorist detainees?
Suppose you have a kidnapped girl. You catch one of the kidnappers who won't talk.
Why not "waterboard" him?


Look at the definition.
If the purpose is for gaining information (as one example), then it's torture.


That's like trying to invalidate rape cause you can point to consensual sex.
And incidentally, the Navy Seals STOPPED USING WATERBOARDING as a training exercise cause it ALWAYS BROKE the person.
It was detrimental to moral.


Read the definition, repeatedly shown.

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Republicans have a sweet racket because they run on "government is ineffective," and then when they **** things up, they go, "See." – Bill Maher

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist."
--Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Then what happened to ManCow was not torture.
So this entire thread is nothing but B.S. because its entire premise is based on the idea that ManCow, after being waterboarded in a manner not consistent with your definition of torture, was tortured according to his account of being waterboarded.
Thanks.

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"...baseball...It reminds us of all that once was good and it could be again." --- Terence Mann (field of dreams)

In that the effort was not with regards to "obtaining information"? No.

But when people talk about this subject, they are typically talking about the FIRST part of the definition: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental..."
People scoff at the idea that water being poured over the mouth is "severe pain or suffering", like ManCow did.

Mancow IS CONFIRMING what that experience qualified as...


Is that "the" point of the thread?
Or what YOU are claiming is the point of the thread to ignore what REALLY happened...

The thread title is "ManCow waterboarded". Not "ManCow was tortured".
The original quote states: "Mancow reaffirmed that the practice was indeed torture ..."
Doesn't say "Mancow screamed that he was tortured."
Mancow acknowledged the PRACTICE of waterboarding qualifies as torture.

You're making up strawman arguments to ignore the point.

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Republicans have a sweet racket because they run on "government is ineffective," and then when they **** things up, they go, "See." – Bill Maher

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist."
--Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

NO one yet has answered the SIMPLE question.

If the President has the authority to have people maimed and killed why doesn't he also have the authority to be "mean" or to make those same people "fear for their lives"?

You lefties try to pretend that GW's "policies" were to wantonly torture innocent people. Heck even the worst of the despots in the world aren't so accused by ya'll. You save your criticism for your political opponents instead of directing it to where it would be far more truthful........Speak "Truth to power" my grasshopper.

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"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively and without self delusion---In the long run these are the only people that count." ***** Robert Heinlein

What the hell do you think you're talking about?

If you're talking about war, then obviously there is a LOT MORE involved like a Congressional order.
And NONE of that covers what happens when people are DETAINED.

Killing them on the battle-field in war? Yes.
Torturing a man who has been captured and detained? No.


No. We don't.
I have no illusions about the sins of the people involved.
But WE ARE AMERICA.
We should be better than this crap.


My tax dollars don't go to pay their salaries.
So yeah. I hold the President of the United States up to a little more volume of scrutiny than some backwater third-world nation whose human rights abuses we agree upon...

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Republicans have a sweet racket because they run on "government is ineffective," and then when they **** things up, they go, "See." – Bill Maher

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist."
--Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Are we betting on this?...

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"You get the respect that you give" - cnredd

I am trying to figure out what it would be like to live in a country where we just don't have limits. Or where we allow our Presidents to change what is legal in the way they try to claim to have done. First you get your hand picked lawyer to render an opinion that it isn't torture. Mention it in some passing way to a congress person and boom instant change in the laws. I don't think I would like it. And I don't think it passes the smell test. George Washington wouldn't allow it. And its been that way for a long time for a reason.
I think that if you think you are the good side fighting the evil side you should strive to be better then those you are fighting. I don't know. It just sort of works better for me. And the fact that I think this is all Cheney. All the dumb stuff we have done in the past 8 years has been promoted by Cheney. From Iraq to waterboarding. From Valerie plame and Judith Miller to the lose of focus on OBL alqaeda and Pakistan. He worried about one numb nut some day getting a nuke(If you buy that story). Someone who actually liked the U.S. Saddam Hussain. Rather then staying on the hunt of the people who attacked us like they pledged to do. They got side tracked on purpous if you ask me. Its all Cheney. I know the buck stops with Bush. But Cheney is obviously obsessed about being right all the time. He is completely mad.

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Don't take any of it too seriously.

That was udderly ridiculous!

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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson

* An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia regatur orbis?
o Translation: "Don't you know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?


VIVE LIBERTE'

Oliver North has confirmed that waterboarding is not torture; yet, his experience during SERE training is dimissed by some.

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"...baseball...It reminds us of all that once was good and it could be again." --- Terence Mann (field of dreams)

Oliver North thought it was OK to sell arms to our enemies. I don't think I would use him as an example of anything.

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Don't take any of it too seriously.