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The Media Discuss Sean Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by cnredd Well here you go... Under the Bush surveilance , one party of the communications HAD to ...

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Old 06-15-2013, 03:49 PM
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Post Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Well here you go...
Under the Bush surveilance, one party of the communications HAD to be outside the US...It was strictly a US-to-nonUS or nonUS-to-US call...
You're pointing to the wrong program.
YES. The legislation that was passed dealt with WIRE-TAPPING (different program than what we're talking about) involving a nonUS.

The program we're talking about under Obama ALSO existed under Bush as well. And this program has no legislation around it because the government is claiming that it's all legal.
USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 article
The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.
That last paragraph sound familiar?
It should. EXACTLY what continued on under Obama...
In fact, the article even emphasizes the distinction between what you pointed to above and what Bush was actually doing in addition
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 article
In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
That makes the call international, and FISA, which stands for FOREIGN Intelligence Surveillance Agency, comes into play...
Obama doesn't make that distinction...He's surveilling US-US calls, also, such as Maine to Iowa, which is not only a flagrant abuse to American rights, but using the FOREIGN Intelligence Surveillance Agency as a cover is flat-out illegal and disgusting...
1) "surveiling"?
To clarify, he's not eavesdropping. He's collecting the metadata which I find disgusting but is NOT the FISA legislation on eavesdropping.

2) There's another thread on here discussing whether or not this is actually unconstitutional.
http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/civ...-probably.html
There are good arguments for claiming that it's not unconstitutional. I'm not saying I'm sold on them, but rather that it's not cut and dried...
And I personally find that ambiguity disgusting.
There's obviously going to be a challenge on it. I think we've got a HUGE gap in our constitutional standards on the issue, in line with the idea that you can slap a GPS device on somebody's car without a warrant and that was supposedly legal. That was finally ruled unconstitutional, but it demonstrates how technology lags our laws / constitution.


Regardless, you still don't seem to get that as far as actual actions Obama is just continuing Bush's program.
There's no "he's doing it more" argument.

Regarding hypocrisy, I agree 110%. Regarding the fact that it's wrong, I am totally on board.

But you don't have ground to stand on regarding Obama supposedly doing it "more" than Bush.
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You're pointing to the wrong program.
YES. The legislation that was passed dealt with WIRE-TAPPING (different program than what we're talking about) involving a nonUS.
Nope...I know exactly the program I speak of...

Let's go back to the very first paragrpah from the NYT artilce I linked in my last post of this thread...

Quote:
Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
"Secretly authorized the NSA"...

So this is NOT the "legislation" you're saying I'm redirecting to...It was a PRESIDENTIAL ORDER...

Quote:
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.
Executive order...International calls and emails...

C'mon foundit...Just admit that Obama spys on US-to-US using the FOREIGN Intelligence Surveillance Agency and Bush didn't, and the difference is massive...
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:59 PM
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Post Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Nope...I know exactly the program I speak of...
Let's go back to the very first paragrpah from the NYT artilce I linked in my last post of this thread...
"Secretly authorized the NSA"...
So this is NOT the "legislation" you're saying I'm redirecting to...It was an EXECUTIVE ORDER...
Executive order...International calls and emails...
C'mon foundit...Just admit that Obama spys on US-to-US and Bush didn't, and the difference is massive...
You responded before I finished editing my post.
Go read that USA Today article I added to post #11 and get back to me. Particularly the parts I quoted as they emphasize EXACTLY what I was getting at.
http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...5-10-nsa_x.htm

And then YOU can admit Bush WAS "spying" (or whatever you want to call it) on US to US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 article
In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You responded before I finished editing my post.
Go read that USA Today article I added to post #11 and get back to me. Particularly the parts I quoted as they emphasize EXACTLY what I was getting at.
USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

And then YOU can admit Bush WAS "spying" (or whatever you want to call it) on US to US.
You're doing all you can...I understand...Wave the banner blind and proud!!!...
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:16 PM
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Post Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
You're doing all you can...I understand...Wave the banner blind and proud!!!...
Sigh. I had hoped you could have admitted the obvious...

Bush DID have the NSA legislation, which was public.
But he ALSO had the same program which continued under Obama, as my article clearly spelled out.

I can understand why you don't want to admit that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 article
In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.
USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

I've already told you that I blame Obama for continuing this and I openly admit it's wrong.
But you think that this point of contention is about waving the banner for Obama???


Why can't you just admit that Bush and Obama were doing the exact same things for collecting the phone metadata???
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Sigh. I had hoped you could have admitted the obvious...

Bush DID have the NSA legislation, which was public.
But he ALSO had the same program which continued under Obama, as my article clearly spelled out.

I can understand why you don't want to admit that.

USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

I've already told you that I blame Obama for continuing this and I openly admit it's wrong.
But you think that this point of contention is about waving the banner for Obama???


Why can't you just admit that Bush and Obama were doing the exact same things for collecting the phone metadata???
This is your evidence...

Quote:
Sources, however, say that is not the case
That's it????...Not even a face to face interview like Snowden did?...

And while the Bush administration has denied it, the Obama administration said "Yup!...We're all about that!"...

And that's AFTER Clapper lied to Congress and said they didn't...

I'll use a lefty source to ease your consterntion...

Fire James Clapper

Quote:
If President Obama really does welcome a debate about the scope of the U.S. surveillance program, a good first step would be to fire Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

Back at an open congressional hearing on March 12, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Clapper, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?” Clapper replied, “No sir … not wittingly.” As we all now know, he was lying.
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:31 PM
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Post Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
This is your evidence...
That's it????...Not even a face to face interview like Snowden did?...
And while the Bush administration has denied it, the Obama administration said "Yup!...We're all about that!"...
Are you for real?
Do yourself a favor and read the 2006 article before going further.
Geez. The White House had comments on this that you're not going to enjoy cause they prove you wrong...
Quote:
The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program. "There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping.

She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit of al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored intelligence activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino said. She also noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the intelligence efforts of the United States."

The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.
USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

All members of Congress had been briefed.
You remember Obama saying that too?

Just face the facts. It's the same program.
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Are you for real?
Do yourself a favor and read the 2006 article before going further.
Geez. The White House had comments on this that you're not going to enjoy cause they prove you wrong...

USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

All members of Congress had been briefed.
You remember Obama saying that too?

Just face the facts. It's the same program.
It's FAR from the same program...You're trying to tell me Obama is running a program based on a 2002 George Bush presidential porder!!!!!...

Let's face it...he's MEGA-Buh when it comes to the NSA...And, as I've said before, Bush isn't the hypocrite...Obama was for running on a platform of anti-NSA surveillanece...
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
It's FAR from the same program...You're trying to tell me Obama is running a program based on a 2002 George Bush presidential porder!!!!!...
Where do you get "2002" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Let's face it...he's MEGA-Buh when it comes to the NSA...And, as I've said before, Bush isn't the hypocrite...Obama was for running on a platform of anti-NSA surveillanece...
I've already told you repeatedly that I agree 110% on Obama being a mega-hypocrite on the issue.

But make no mistake. This program for collecting phone details (not eavesdropping) started under Bush.
Doesn't mitigate ANY blame for Obama, except I guess it shines too much of a backlight onto Repubs and they want to be out of a glass house before throwing stones...
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Sean Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance

Geez. The article even specifies the one major telecom that refused to participate...
Qwest...
Quote:
One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.
USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

Why does that sound familiar?
Oh yeah. Cause somebody else was talking about Qwest refusing to participate also lately...
http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/law...-jail-4-y.html


Geez. Why do you think there was that big push in 2008 to grant the Telecoms immunity regarding participating in these governmental programs?
If all they were doing was participating in FISA, there would be no need for immunity.
The immunity was (in part) to protect against civil suits for giving out the info to the government...
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