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The Media Discuss Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by cnredd First, the name is never capitalized... I believe we CAN'T have an honest and frank discussion... ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2008, 01:42 PM
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Post Re: Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
First, the name is never capitalized...
I believe we CAN'T have an honest and frank discussion...
Then I'm sorry you can't live up to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
Groups that say "There are homosexuals that have an agenda, and we're trying to prevent that" are automatically considered "homophobic" in your world...
False.
Quite frankly, I don't care what they label it.
If they advocate discrimination against gays, that IS homophobic.

And again, you are whining about the label being used, and NOT trying to argue that it is INACCURATE.
Which is the main reason this discussion will go nowhere.

Furthermore, if the "agenda" is NOT issues of discrimination, then they are NOT homophobic.
Like for example hate crime legislation. It's not an issue of advocating "discrimination" against anybody.
If there is some group out there that disagrees with homosexuality, argues against hate crime legislation and does NOT advocate discrimination, that is not homophobic.

And AGAIN you whine about the label being used, but DO NOT try to claim the definition of the label is wrong.
Suppose we were in the South years ago, and there were multiple political organizations formed to try to preserve and enact discrimination against blacks.
And people said these groups were "racist".
And then we have cnredd coming along, proclaiming loudly how much he objects to them being called "racist", but NEVER ONCE trying to argue that they are not in fact racist.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Discriminating against gays is a MULTI-MILLION dollar industry in the U.S., gathering donations to help further efforts to ensure gays are not treated equally under the law.
And you cnredd are essentially complaining that I could use the term "homophobic" in such an assessment, but you are NOT trying to argue that the term does not apply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
The only ones that you don't consider "homophobic" are the ones that disagree with homosexuality but will sit on their ass and not do anything about it...
Considering you have a similar view for "Christo-phobic", I am thoroughly underwhelmed by such criticism.

If you want to try another discussion topic, as far as the possibility of people to LIVE AND LET LIVE despite their personal moral beliefs, we can do that too.
But somehow, I again suspect you are thoroughly lacking in such capacity.

People have morals in their life.
I personally try for an intelligent and logical approach to things, which I feel SOME Christians fail to do.
I "disagree" with their approach to Christian dogma.
But I DO sit on my ass and do NOT advocate discrimination.

For some reason, your statement above demonstrates a thinking that just because you disagree with homosexuality, you have to do something about it.
Which to me, is pretty darn myopic.

You don't agree with the Judaism religion, right?
Do you "sit on your ass and not do anything about it"?

Let me guess.
AGAIN no honest answers to these questions, right?

Last edited by foundit66; 03-14-2008 at 01:49 PM..
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2008, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
False.
Quite frankly, I don't care what they label it.
If they advocate discrimination against gays, that IS homophobic.
Well now...

That goes into the deeper question of "What is discrimination"?

People who believe in traditional family values believe gays discriminate against them by changing laws...

Gays believe people who believe in traditional family values believe gays discriminate against them by trying to uphold the laws...

I'm honest in seeing both sides of the coin...you only see one side...

For lack of a better term, you don't see the "traditional family value-phobia" in all of this...All you have to do is look at the Rosie O'Donnells of the world saying how much this "scares" them...

Quote:
Furthermore, if the "agenda" is NOT issues of discrimination, then they are NOT homophobic.
Like for example hate crime legislation. It's not an issue of advocating "discrimination" against anybody.
If there is some group out there that disagrees with homosexuality, argues against hate crime legislation and does NOT advocate discrimination, that is not homophobic.
That doesn't work here because people who are against hate crime legislation are against it ACROSS THE BOARD...

If you were to find a group that believs there should be hate crime legislation for a group of people (blacks, Christians), but at the same time does NOT support it for gays, THEN this analogy would have merit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
And AGAIN you whine about the label being used, but DO NOT try to claim the definition of the label is wrong.
Suppose we were in the South years ago, and there were multiple political organizations formed to try to preserve and enact discrimination against blacks.
And people said these groups were "racist".
And then we have cnredd coming along, proclaiming loudly how much he objects to them being called "racist", but NEVER ONCE trying to argue that they are not in fact racist.
There you go with the discrimination again...

What if I told you that black people must give me one dollar each for constantly berating me with "white guilt" for slavery because my ancestory wasn't in this country when slavery was around, and if they DIDN'T, then I would yell "discrimination" from the highest mountain...

You'd find it absurd (I sure hope!)...

Well I hate to tell you, but there are people in this country that find gay marriage equally absurd, and it sure sounds like your response is yelling "discrimination" in the very same manner...

Quote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Discriminating against gays is a MULTI-MILLION dollar industry in the U.S., gathering donations to help further efforts to ensure gays are not treated equally under the law.
Yes yes yes...

That's twice now without a peep about that the gay movement being a multi-million dollar industry pushing to get everybody in the world to believe their actions aren't sinful or against traditional family values...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
And you cnredd are essentially complaining that I could use the term "homophobic" in such an assessment, but you are NOT trying to argue that the term does not apply.
Why bother?...

I'll show you a group, and you'll reply with "Oh they're homophobes...

And then I'll show another one, and get the same response...and so on...and so on...

Would I ever expect you to say..."Hey, those guys disagree with the gay lifestyle and gay marrige, but they aren't homophobes!"...

Don't make me laugh...

Quote:
If you want to try another discussion topic, as far as the possibility of people to LIVE AND LET LIVE despite their personal moral beliefs, we can do that too.
But somehow, I again suspect you are thoroughly lacking in such capacity.
If it was LIVE AND LET LIVE, gay groups wouldn't be trying to change laws now, would they?...

Quote:
People have morals in their life.
I personally try for an intelligent and logical approach to things, which I feel SOME Christians fail to do.
I "disagree" with their approach to Christian dogma.
But I DO sit on my ass and do NOT advocate discrimination.

For some reason, your statement above demonstrates a thinking that just because you disagree with homosexuality, you have to do something about it.
Which to me, is pretty darn myopic.
Nope...

What I'm saying is that if you're against homosexuality but don't do anything about it, you won't be labeled a homophobe...

If you get up off your ass and form a group because you're against homosexuality, you WILL be labeled a homophobe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
You don't agree with the Judaism religion, right?
Do you "sit on your ass and not do anything about it"?

Let me guess.
AGAIN no honest answers to these questions, right?
My last comment explains it...



Here's a quality question for you to chew on...

Am I a homophobe?...
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2008, 02:56 PM
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Post Re: Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Well now...
That goes into the deeper question of "What is discrimination"?
An actual discussion I want to have.
But in reviewing your comments, an actual discussion you are feeble in broaching.
You do not even try to argue that the "discrimination" against gays is not actually "discrimination".
Instead, you present an ABSURD pretense whereby the people PERPETUATING the discrimination are somehow "discriminated" against when the discrimination ends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
People who believe in traditional family values believe gays discriminate against them by changing laws...
I am boggled by such a perspective.
Such a pretense would make the WHITES the victims when the BLACKS are made equal through legislation prohibiting discrimination.
That's b.s.

When gays are allowed equality, it does not remove any rights or privileges from "traditional families".
These families have the same rights and capabilities they previously had.

The claim is a b.s. propagandic pretense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
Gays believe people who believe in traditional family values believe gays discriminate against them by trying to uphold the laws...
This propagandic double speak is annoying.
No. I don't believe anybody "discriminates" against me by JUST "trying to uphold the laws".
It's the CONTENT of those laws which is discriminatory.

Your tactic is to try to misframe the issue, so that it looks like I am arguing "upholding the law" is discriminatory.
It is the CONTENT of the law which is discriminatory.
Telling a gay person that they cannot adopt is discriminatory.
Telling a gay person they cannot serve in the military is discriminatory.
Telling a gay person they cannot have any kind of civil recognition for their gay partner like what exists for straight partners is discriminatory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
I'm honest in seeing both sides of the coin...you only see one side...
From your phrasing of the above, this claim is absurdly false.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
For lack of a better term, you don't see the "traditional family value-phobia" in all of this...All you have to do is look at the Rosie O'Donnells of the world saying how much this "scares" them...
I don't defend Rosie.
I speak for my position.

There is no "traditional family value-phobia".
At least in no real sense which would proclaim "white-phobia" just because blacks are given the right to vote.

The very fact that you try to present the two as similar "phobias" demonstrates how you are NOT honest in seeing both sides of the coin.

HERE are both sides of the coin.
Without gay marriage / civil unions, gay couples cannot marry or partner.
"Traditional family" couples can.

With gay marriage / civil unions, gay couples can marry / partner.
"Traditional family" couples STILL can.

To try and compare the "phobias" here is absurd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
That doesn't work here because people who are against hate crime legislation are against it ACROSS THE BOARD...
False.
The statistics of people who are for racial hate crime legislation are larger than those for sexual orientation hate crime legislation.
While I agree there IS overlap, there is also a significant percentage of people who SUPPORT hate crimes for race, but OPPOSE it for sexual orientation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
There you go with the discrimination again...
If the shoe fits...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
What if I told you that black people must give me one dollar each for constantly berating me with "white guilt" for slavery because my ancestory wasn't in this country when slavery was around, and if they DIDN'T, then I would yell "discrimination" from the highest mountain...
You'd find it absurd (I sure hope!)...
Well I hate to tell you, but there are people in this country that find gay marriage equally absurd, and it sure sounds like your response is yelling "discrimination" in the very same manner...
Quite frankly, there are people who still think gravity is a "theory" in a sense that it COULD BE FALSE.
Just because somebody thinks something is "absurd" doesn't make it rational.

And I realize such "absurdity" exists.
It's the "absurdity" that tries to pretend that allowing gay marriage will doom straight marriage.
Yet they cannot show to ANY ACTUAL EFFECT whereby straights who marry will be changed.
* Will there be fewer straights who marry because of gay marriage? No.
* Will there be more straight divorces because of gay marriage? No.
But still, the absurd pretense, based on a thorough lack of intelligent thought, exists.

Here again, you try to weasel around discussing what discrimination IS.
You try to weasel around the fact that my assessment of discrimination IS DEAD-ON!


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
That's twice now without a peep about that the gay movement being a multi-million dollar industry pushing to get everybody in the world to believe their actions aren't sinful or against traditional family values...
Honestly, this is the first time I've seen you try to raise THAT nonsense.
I don't give a damn what your beliefs are.
I don't give a damn what you think about gays.
I want equal rights.

And I'm sick and tired of people like you lacking the honesty to factually repeat that without trying to pretend that we are "pushing" you to believe otherwise.
The money being spent goes to EQUALITY in governmental treatment. In governmental coverage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
Why bother?...
I've already explained that.
Repeatedly.

You repeatedly try to pretend that me labelling something as "X" is absurd, based solely on the quantity of labelling something as "X".
That's ridiculous and myopic.

You REFUSE to even broach the issue of whether something ACTUALLY IS "X".

It's like walking into a room. I talk about green objects in the room.
You complain that I label a lot of objects in the room green.
But then you fail to talk about whether or not those items are ACTUALLY green.
You just don't like the word, and that's pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
I'll show you a group, and you'll reply with "Oh they're homophobes...
And then I'll show another one, and get the same response...and so on...and so on...
Like I said, it's really dumb for you to criticize me on this when you have the EXACT SAME APPROACH when it comes to "Christo-phobes".
It's really pointless and lame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
Would I ever expect you to say..."Hey, those guys disagree with the gay lifestyle and gay marrige, but they aren't homophobes!"...
Don't make me laugh...
You are so wrapped up in trying to see only one side of the issue that you're incapable of realizing the truth.
It's like the past where you've claimed I think George Bush is "anti-gay" after I have EXPLICITLy refuted such a claim.

I have already told you, REPEATEDLY, that simple disagreement with "gay lifestyle" is NOT homophobia.
I have already told you that I have MET PEOPLE who disagree with the "gay lifestyle" who are NOT homophobes, yet that hasn't penetrated your skull.

How can you pretend you see both sides of the coin when you can't even honestly relay what my position really is?

As for "gay marriage" and ACTIONS, I have no problem with a FULLY EQUAL alternative like civil unions.
I have met people who "disagree" with homosexuality, yet feel gays should have civil unions. They are not homophobic.

But of course, your mind is already made up on what I think so none of this will penetrate your cranium.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
If it was LIVE AND LET LIVE, gay groups wouldn't be trying to change laws now, would they?...
By that type of myopic and one-sided thinking, Martin Luther King was not "live and let live", was he.
HE wanted to eliminate discrimination also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
What I'm saying is that if you're against homosexuality but don't do anything about it, you won't be labeled a homophobe...
This is just plain stupid.
I say what my position is.
You insist that my position is not accurate.

You show no FALSEHOOD in my position.
You just refuse to accept it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
If you get up off your ass and form a group because you're against homosexuality, you WILL be labeled a homophobe...
At this point, this is just a stupid lie.
I've already told you that there are churches out there that think homosexuality is not a sin, yet they do not endorse discrimination against homosexuals.
They are NOT homophobic.

Each time you repeat your stupid lie it only undermines your position.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd
My last comment explains it...
Here's a quality question for you to chew on...
Am I a homophobe?...
1) This reply above previously quotes a QUESTION I asked cnredd.
A question he predictably fails to answer.
Instead, he again insists I answer his questions.

2) To answer your question, even though you refuse to address mine...
From what I have seen of your opinion, my answer is no.
And of course, you lack the intellectual integrity to actually "chew on" that for yourself.

I think you are incredibly naive in some ways. You do NOT see both sides of the issue.
Like before, we have talked about discrimination protection, which you support, but then when we use the EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE as exists to prevent religious discrimination, you balk.
But it's an issue of you JUST DO NOT KNOW how EXISTING discrimination is protected against, and then when you find out gays are using a specific technique, you balk against the gays like we're doing something unheard of.

Last edited by foundit66; 03-14-2008 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 03-14-2008, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland



I'm supposed to respond to that last post?!?!?

It would take less time to read War & Peace...

It's friggin' foruim, not a college thesis....

Geez!...You know how to destroy a conversation...
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:23 PM
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Post Re: Staging "Islamophobia" in Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post

I'm supposed to respond to that last post?!?!?
It would take less time to read War & Peace...
It's friggin' foruim, not a college thesis....
Geez!...You know how to destroy a conversation...
Part of the reason these things grow is because the originating poster, Mr. X, claims Mr. Y believes "alpha".
Then Mr. Y spends more time explaining that he doesn't believe in "alpha", but rather believes "beta".
And then if Mr. X repeats the claim, then Mr. Y spends more time trying to provide analogies and the like to elaborate on the position that Mr. X doesn't understand.

You want brief?
You're not a homophobe from what I have seen.
Short, sweet, and to the point.
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