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Law & Order Discuss Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black Man at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by mr wonder agreed. You know, it's 2nd guessing but seems to me all the Back-up should have ...

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Old 05-26-2021, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
agreed.

You know, it's 2nd guessing but seems to me all the Back-up should have had to do was checked the demeanor of the other cop and acted accordingly.
But Shooting on-sight seems like a bad response no matter what.


I can't say one way or the other for sure BUT I suspect the shooters would have a killed a white guy or a guy in wheel chair or a kid.
The "I felt threatened", "warrior cop", "better to be tried by 6 than carried by 12", "us against them" mentality, And piss poor training leaves EVERYONE vulnerable to this kind of thing.
PLUS the fact the GOOD cop was fired shows that that city's WHOLE law enforcement system is JACKED-UP.
When somebody's pointing a gun at you, you don't have time to stop and check their check the reason.

IMO, this was a clear case of suicide by cop. In spite of the article's writer and others attempting to make it so, nothing to do with race. Nothing to do with somebody making a big deal out of nothing. Nothing to do with a kid in a wheel chair.

The perp got his wish. I can't argue with that.
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
When somebody's pointing a gun at you, you don't have time to stop and check their check the reason.
IMO, this was a clear case of suicide by cop. In spite of the article's writer and others attempting to make it so, nothing to do with race. Nothing to do with somebody making a big deal out of nothing. Nothing to do with a kid in a wheel chair.
The perp got his wish. I can't argue with that.
the 1st cop on the scene, DID have time to stop and check and was in the process of trying to resolve the situation without firing on the man.
Seems the others just showed up, saw a man with a gun and began to shoot.
Seems to me we as citizens should not want or expect our local police to shoot on sight anyone they see with a gun.
If you're on your porch with gun and some frighten neighbor call the cops on you, do you hope the cops try to find out what's going on BEFORE they start shooting? Or prefer that the instant they see your weapon they start shooting?
Video: Deputy talks down armed suicidal suspect
K-9 Deputy Jeremie Nix was able to talk down the suspect after he told the LEO he was armed with a firearm and knife .. link
Didn't get his wish. what we all should hope for. right?
Cops talk down man who loaded a rifle, said he wanted to ‘kill people’
Updated Nov 13, 2019
Police talked a gunman into surrendering after he reportedly told family he wanted to “kill people” and loaded a semi-automatic rifle at an Ocean County home, authorities said Wednesday.
Manchester police “averted a tragedy” in de-escalating the incident without any injuries and seized two rifles - one loaded - along a large amount of ammunition, the department said in a statement.
The situation unfolded early Saturday when authorities received a call from a relative of the 25-year-old man reporting that he suffered from mental health issues and was “acting irrationally while loading a semi-automatic rifle” at a Pine Lake Park residence, according to police.
link
Obviously a CLEAR dereliction of duty right? Put lives in danger
So the cops in this case should all be fired right?
Nope, they were GOOD cops.
MTA cops talk down man waving gun at Jamaica LIRR station
Jul 12, 2020 at 8:35 PM
MTA police said Sunday officers arrested a distraught man waving a gun at the Long Island Rail Road’s Jamaica Station after a 45-minute standoff.
Lt. Francis Zaino, 65, who’s worked as a transit cop for nearly 39 years and is set to retire later this month, said he got a report at 2:10 p.m. Saturday of a man sitting on a platform at the station with his legs hanging over the tracks.
When he and another officer went to investigate, the man jumped onto the train tracks and pulled out a .40 caliber handgun and began to wave it around, point it at his own head and stick it inside his mouth.
The cops took cover, and tried to talk down the distraught 19-year-old gunman, who Zaino said appeared to be suicidal.
“He apparently had a fight with his father that morning,” said Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”
link
But... But... but there was a GUN!... so they had no real choice but to shoot the kid right?
wrong.
Just because someone has a gun does NOT mean the LEO's duty is to shoot 1st and ask questions later.
GOOD cops try to resolve problems without hurting or killing people. They definitely should not be fired for aiming for the best outcome. The outcome where everyone walks away unharmed. They should get rewarded and be training other cops to do the same.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 05-26-2021 at 08:30 AM..
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:46 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the 1st cop on the scene, DID have time to stop and check and was in the process of trying to resolve the situation without firing on the man.
Seems the others just showed up, saw a man with a gun and began to shoot.
Seems to me we as citizens should not want or expect our local police to shoot on sight anyone they see with a gun.
If you're on your porch with gun and some frighten neighbor call the cops on you, do you hope the cops try to find out what's going on BEFORE they start shooting? Or prefer that the instant they see your weapon they start shooting?
Video: Deputy talks down armed suicidal suspect
K-9 Deputy Jeremie Nix was able to talk down the suspect after he told the LEO he was armed with a firearm and knife .. link
Didn't get his wish. what we all should hope for. right?
Cops talk down man who loaded a rifle, said he wanted to ‘kill people’
Updated Nov 13, 2019
Police talked a gunman into surrendering after he reportedly told family he wanted to “kill people” and loaded a semi-automatic rifle at an Ocean County home, authorities said Wednesday.
Manchester police “averted a tragedy” in de-escalating the incident without any injuries and seized two rifles - one loaded - along a large amount of ammunition, the department said in a statement.
The situation unfolded early Saturday when authorities received a call from a relative of the 25-year-old man reporting that he suffered from mental health issues and was “acting irrationally while loading a semi-automatic rifle” at a Pine Lake Park residence, according to police.
link
Obviously a CLEAR dereliction of duty right? Put lives in danger
So the cops in this case should all be fired right?
Nope, they were GOOD cops.
MTA cops talk down man waving gun at Jamaica LIRR station
Jul 12, 2020 at 8:35 PM
MTA police said Sunday officers arrested a distraught man waving a gun at the Long Island Rail Road’s Jamaica Station after a 45-minute standoff.
Lt. Francis Zaino, 65, who’s worked as a transit cop for nearly 39 years and is set to retire later this month, said he got a report at 2:10 p.m. Saturday of a man sitting on a platform at the station with his legs hanging over the tracks.
When he and another officer went to investigate, the man jumped onto the train tracks and pulled out a .40 caliber handgun and began to wave it around, point it at his own head and stick it inside his mouth.
The cops took cover, and tried to talk down the distraught 19-year-old gunman, who Zaino said appeared to be suicidal.
“He apparently had a fight with his father that morning,” said Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”
link
But... But... but there was a GUN!... so they had no real choice but to shoot the kid right?
wrong.
Just because someone has a gun does NOT mean the LEO's duty is to shoot 1st and ask questions later.
GOOD cops try to resolve problems without hurting or killing people. They definitely should not be fired for aiming for the best outcome. The outcome where everyone walks away unharmed.
Two different time frames and two different situations. The second set of cops obviously saw it different than than the first. For one thing, in the first situation, according to what I read, the gun was behind the perps back. The second he drew down on the police. Hardly the same. What I do know is this was not about race. Which seems to be the writers motive.

Drawing on police with an unloaded weapon is nothing but suicide by cop. Especially if you're yelling "Shoot me". Perp got his wish.

I carry. In the rare event I'm ever faced with the same situation, I'm not going to spend 5 minutes deciding whether I shoot or not.
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Old 05-26-2021, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
Two different time frames and two different situations. The second set of cops obviously saw it different than than the first. For one thing, in the first situation, according to what I read, the gun was behind the perps back. The second he drew down on the police. Hardly the same. What I do know is this was not about race. Which seems to be the writers motive.

Drawing on police with an unloaded weapon is nothing but suicide by cop. Especially if you're yelling "Shoot me". Perp got his wish.

I carry. In the rare event I'm ever faced with the same situation, I'm not going to spend 5 minutes deciding whether I shoot or not.
Agreed.

The possession of lethal force, by an uncooperative person, is sufficient cause to respond with deadly force.
The police take an oath with an inherent promise to laydown their life to save another person. That doesn't mean one of them must sacrifice his life, and be shot dead, before his partner shoots back.
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Old 05-26-2021, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
Two different time frames and two different situations. The second set of cops obviously saw it different than than the first. For one thing, in the first situation, according to what I read, the gun was behind the perps back. The second he drew down on the police. Hardly the same. What I do know is this was not about race. Which seems to be the writers motive.

Drawing on police with an unloaded weapon is nothing but suicide by cop. Especially if you're yelling "Shoot me". Perp got his wish.

I carry. In the rare event I'm ever faced with the same situation, I'm not going to spend 5 minutes deciding whether I shoot or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Agreed.

The possession of lethal force, by an uncooperative person, is sufficient cause to respond with deadly force.
The police take an oath with an inherent promise to laydown their life to save another person. That doesn't mean one of them must sacrifice his life, and be shot dead, before his partner shoots back.
Proper reaction by LEO's
....The cops took cover, and tried to talk down the distraught 19-year-old gunman, who Zaino said appeared to be suicidal.
“He apparently had a fight with his father that morning,” said Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”

Shooting is NOT the 1st option, it's should be the very last.
The officer should have been made a trainer.

BTW you do know that there was a woman and baby in the house they were shooting towards as well right? the woman who called 911. And homes close by that were also struck by LEO's bullets?

gun fire is the last option.

The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”
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The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents."

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..1 Peter 2:16
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Proper reaction by LEO's
....The cops took cover, and tried to talk down the distraught 19-year-old gunman, who Zaino said appeared to be suicidal.
“He apparently had a fight with his father that morning,” said Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”

Shooting is NOT the 1st option, it's should be the very last.
The officer should have been made a trainer.

BTW you do know that there was a woman and baby in the house they were shooting towards as well right? the woman who called 911. And homes close by that were also struck by LEO's bullets?

gun fire is the last option.

The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”
Yes I know the situation. Been there my self a few times back when I was younger. Fortunately someone else made the critical choice.

As for innocent bystanders in the line of fire, that is completely out of the control of the officers on the scene. The best they can do is be careful of everyone's life, including their own.
Have you been in that position?
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the 1st cop on the scene, DID have time to stop and check and was in the process of trying to resolve the situation without firing on the man.
Seems the others just showed up, saw a man with a gun and began to shoot.
Seems to me we as citizens should not want or expect our local police to shoot on sight anyone they see with a gun.
If you're on your porch with gun and some frighten neighbor call the cops on you, do you hope the cops try to find out what's going on BEFORE they start shooting? Or prefer that the instant they see your weapon they start shooting?
Video: Deputy talks down armed suicidal suspect
K-9 Deputy Jeremie Nix was able to talk down the suspect after he told the LEO he was armed with a firearm and knife .. link
Didn't get his wish. what we all should hope for. right?
Cops talk down man who loaded a rifle, said he wanted to ‘kill people’
Updated Nov 13, 2019
Police talked a gunman into surrendering after he reportedly told family he wanted to “kill people” and loaded a semi-automatic rifle at an Ocean County home, authorities said Wednesday.
Manchester police “averted a tragedy” in de-escalating the incident without any injuries and seized two rifles - one loaded - along a large amount of ammunition, the department said in a statement.
The situation unfolded early Saturday when authorities received a call from a relative of the 25-year-old man reporting that he suffered from mental health issues and was “acting irrationally while loading a semi-automatic rifle” at a Pine Lake Park residence, according to police.
link
Obviously a CLEAR dereliction of duty right? Put lives in danger
So the cops in this case should all be fired right?
Nope, they were GOOD cops.
MTA cops talk down man waving gun at Jamaica LIRR station
Jul 12, 2020 at 8:35 PM
MTA police said Sunday officers arrested a distraught man waving a gun at the Long Island Rail Road’s Jamaica Station after a 45-minute standoff.
Lt. Francis Zaino, 65, who’s worked as a transit cop for nearly 39 years and is set to retire later this month, said he got a report at 2:10 p.m. Saturday of a man sitting on a platform at the station with his legs hanging over the tracks.
When he and another officer went to investigate, the man jumped onto the train tracks and pulled out a .40 caliber handgun and began to wave it around, point it at his own head and stick it inside his mouth.
The cops took cover, and tried to talk down the distraught 19-year-old gunman, who Zaino said appeared to be suicidal.
“He apparently had a fight with his father that morning,” said Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”
link
But... But... but there was a GUN!... so they had no real choice but to shoot the kid right?
wrong.
Just because someone has a gun does NOT mean the LEO's duty is to shoot 1st and ask questions later.
GOOD cops try to resolve problems without hurting or killing people. They definitely should not be fired for aiming for the best outcome. The outcome where everyone walks away unharmed. They should get rewarded and be training other cops to do the same.
Because in other instances the police were able to talk a suspect down doesn't mean it was the right course of action here. Again, the suspect advanced on the officers with gun raised sweeping it back and forth targeting the officers . This is after the officers ordered him to put the gun down and warned him they were preparing to shoot. What is the officers appropriate response, let the suspect shoot them? Run away?

Stop pretending the additional officers on scene just rolled up and opened fire. They came in silently so as not to agitate the suspect. They did as the NY transit officer suggested, took cover and kept the subject covered while instructing the subject to lay down his weapon. Only after the suspect advanced on the officers with his gun raised, targeting them, did the officers give warning then fire. At any point the suspect could have complied with the officers instructions averting the tragedy.
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Old 05-26-2021, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Yes I know the situation. Been there my self a few times back when I was younger. Fortunately someone else made the critical choice.

As for innocent bystanders in the line of fire, that is completely out of the control of the officers on the scene. The best they can do is be careful of everyone's life, including their own.
Have you been in that position?
ok, sadly I've had to deal with a mentally imbalanced guy waving a knife several years ago.
A family member of mine in his home.
My brother and I took sometime and finally talked him into putting the knife down and then we tackled him and got him to a hospital unharmed. Thankfully.
Close enough for you?
But does everyone really have to have the exact experience with it to have a valid opinion? Can't the experience of others also inform a valid opinion franc? How about a fresh eye?
How many LEOs does someone have to quote that agree with me before the opinion is valid in your estimation?

NYPD TA Officer Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”

It's an old police training basic. "Time, Distance and Cover”
it's not something I or the fired LEO made up for police to do. It's in police training manuals franc, have you read them?
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Old 05-26-2021, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
ok, sadly I've had to deal with a mentally imbalanced guy waving a knife several years ago.
A family member of mine in his home.
My brother and I took sometime and finally talked him into putting the knife down and then we tackled him and got him to a hospital unharmed. Thankfully.
Close enough for you?
But does everyone really have to have the exact experience with it to have a valid opinion? Can't the experience of others also inform a valid opinion franc? How about a fresh eye?
How many LEOs does someone have to quote that agree with me before the opinion is valid in your estimation?

NYPD TA Officer Zaino. “The game here was to take our time, maintain a safe distance and take cover.”

It's an old police training basic. "Time, Distance and Cover”
it's not something I or the fired LEO made up for police to do. It's in police training manuals franc, have you read them?
I'm not arguing your point here. Just saying each situation is different for the perp and for the officer. But in general, patience can be a fatal option.

Comprehensive officer training helps mitigate these situations. But so many departments are having their funds cut. training is often sacrifice d for the pleasures of other needed tools of the trade.

Cars, radios and body camera's so we can see how the cop lost his life.

Humanity exists inmost everyone. Sufficient in most cases, to achieve the best outcomes. training for any and every possible scenario is a welcome, useful, but expensive bonus.

I trained for four years to be a firefighter paramedic. I'm betting only a few weeks of that training was allocated to handling those once in a lifetime dilemmic encounters. Fortunately, when the SHTF, we have thousands of arm chair experts telling us, post mortem, how we should have handled the situation.
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Old 05-28-2021, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Police Officer Wins Settlement From City That Fired Him for Not Shooting a Black

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I'm not arguing your point here. Just saying each situation is different for the perp and for the officer. But in general, patience can be a fatal option.

Comprehensive officer training helps mitigate these situations. But so many departments are having their funds cut. training is often sacrifice d for the pleasures of other needed tools of the trade.

Cars, radios and body camera's so we can see how the cop lost his life.

Humanity exists inmost everyone. Sufficient in most cases, to achieve the best outcomes. training for any and every possible scenario is a welcome, useful, but expensive bonus.

I trained for four years to be a firefighter paramedic. I'm betting only a few weeks of that training was allocated to handling those once in a lifetime dilemmic encounters. Fortunately, when the SHTF, we have thousands of arm chair experts telling us, post mortem, how we should have handled the situation.
We know from the Propublica reporting linked in the OP the suspect had his firearm raised targeting the police and was advancing on the officers. He was given multiple warnings the officers were preparing to fire. Still he escalated the situation.
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