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Law & Order Discuss Knee on Neck or drugs at the Political Forums; For the record Former Minneapolis cop Derek Chauvin’s defense attorney Eric Nelson had his work cut out for him during ...

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Old 04-08-2021, 10:08 PM
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Default Knee on Neck or drugs

For the record

Quote:
Former Minneapolis cop Derek Chauvin’s defense attorney Eric Nelson had his work cut out for him during his cross examination of the state’s expert pulmonologist Dr. Martin Tobin on Thursday.
Nelson began by suggesting that Tobin’s report only captured a tiny bit of what happened during George Floyd’s fatal arrest last May.
“You’ve taken this case, and you’ve literally boiled it down into a nanosecond?” he asked.
“I wouldn’t say that,” the doctor replied–noting that his report chronicled several minutes beginning at the point Chauvin’s knee hit Floyd’s neck and ending when paramedics attempted to revive him.
That first volley was more or less emblematic of the defense’s overall strategy to push back against the testimony of the Irish-accented Loyola professor and practicing pulmonologist.
Nelson attempted to cast doubt in jurors’ minds about the scientific conclusions reached by Tobin by repeatedly asking the expert witness about constant changes in science.
“All science is constantly changing,” Tobin noted in response.
On redirect, special prosecutor Jerry Blackwell asked if Chauvin’s knee was “constantly changing” positions while on Floyd’s neck.
The doctor said no.
The defense spent substantial effort tending to its overarching theory of the case; that Floyd died due to a fentanyl overdose. This was an all-but necessity for Nelson due to Tobin’s prior testimony.
The Chicago-based doctor previously dismissed the impact that fentanyl might have had on Floyd as he died last May.
“There isn’t fentanyl on board that is affecting [Floyd’s] respiratory centers,” Tobin previously told the prosecution–right after noting Floyd’s respiratory rate just before his death.
Asked for the “punch line” regarding Floyd’s respiratory rate and the presence of fentanyl in his system, the witness answered decisively.
“You know fentanyl is not causing the depression of his respiration,” the expert pulmonologist said. “What you’re seeing is that the increase in his carbon dioxide that is found in the emergency room is solely explained by what you expect to happen in somebody who doesn’t have any ventilation given to him for 9 minutes and 50 seconds, it’s completely explained by that.”
Nelson sought to poke holes in Tobin’s determination by asking whether fentanyl is generally “a respiratory depressant.”
“It can be,” Tobin replied before explaining that if fentanyl has “any effect” on the respiratory centers that would have to occur through the “neural receptors” of the brain.
“There’s no way around that,” the doctor said. “Fentanyl isn’t going to have an effect on respiration by some other mechanism.”
The upshot of this segment was later clarified during redirect after Nelson asked whether fentanyl can “cause a death as a result of low oxygen.”
“Your answer is yes, but only in part,” Tobin said–again reiterating his prior point.
“Do people go into a coma before they die from fentanyl?” Blackwell asked.
“Yes,” the doctor replied.
“Was Mr. Floyd ever in a coma?” the prosecution pressed.
“No,” Tobin replied.
Law&Crime Network host Brian Buckmire said it wasn’t all bad for the defense, however, noting that Nelson made some headway by establishing that Floyd might have ingested fentanyl just minutes before he died–which Tobin was forced to concede.
#GeorgeFloyd level of fentanyl in his system was closer to those who survived than those who died of fentanyl the doctor on the stand gave that as a final statement on re-direct
— Brian G. Buckmire (@BuckEsq) April 8, 2021

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/de...n-now-on-stand
But hey, maybe all police should always put knees on the neck of everyone who claims they can't breath. Especially known drug users. the CDC recommends it, as well as putting 2 mask on the perps.
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Old 04-08-2021, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
For the record



But hey, maybe all police should always put knees on the neck of everyone who claims they can't breath. Especially known drug users. the CDC recommends it, as well as putting 2 mask on the perps.
your pitiful attempt to conflate an organization's guidelines to help people avoid illness and death, with an act that killed or may have killed someone, is just that. Pitiful.
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Old 04-09-2021, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
your pitiful attempt to conflate an organization's guidelines to help people avoid illness and death, with an act that killed or may have killed someone, is just that. Pitiful.
Ok I guess i get why you don't like the idea there.

But for clarity, the point is simply this,
Gov't guidelines/procedures are sometimes counter productive, and are not always for our health and safety.... maybe even outright harmful.
Also both these practices, knees on necks and maskX2, happen to restrict breathing... with no other good purpose.

But hey go ahead and eat your gov't recommended Margarine, it's good for you.
And give the 3 year olds addictive Ritalin drugs for adhd like the "experts" proscribe.
The Gov't, the current majority experts and our elected officials know what's best... thinking for yourself is fine as long as you OBEY the gov't and experts right salt?
I mean evidence to the contrary is just "crazy" nonsense.
the gov't and police are always right and double plus good.
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

Guilty of manslaughter.
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Old 04-09-2021, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by Lollie View Post
Guilty of manslaughter.
here's my question about this.

If you or I put our knee on the neck of someone for 9 minutes who claimed they could not breath, would you or I be charged with manslaughter?
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
here's my question about this.

If you or I put our knee on the neck of someone for 9 minutes who claimed they could not breath, would you or I be charged with manslaughter?
I will stipulate that there are quite a few other facts in this case than those that you wish to narrow it down too. For example, Mr. Floyd was complaining of not being able to breath long before the officer had him on the ground with his knee in the side of his neck.

I'm not here to argue one way or the other on this specific case. But to ignore all other evidence that contributed to Mr. Floyd's death is dishonest. I believe you are better than this Mr. Wonder.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I will stipulate that there are quite a few other facts in this case than those that you wish to narrow it down too. For example, Mr. Floyd was complaining of not being able to breath long before the officer had him on the ground with his knee in the side of his neck.

I'm not here to argue one way or the other on this specific case. But to ignore all other evidence that contributed to Mr. Floyd's death is dishonest. I believe you are better than this Mr. Wonder.
What evidence have I ignored exactly?
my 1st post shows the medical assessment that the "other evidence" we're not the cause of death.

I see it like this,
If there's a old man with breathing problems OR COPD OR Asthma OR is coughing becasue water went down the wrong pipe, and Someone who knew this puts a pillow over his face and holds it there for 9 minutes... because he was thrashing around "dangerously".
Do They get to claim that the man PROBABLY died of COPD etc?

is that being "honest"?
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
What evidence have I ignored exactly?
my 1st post shows the medical assessment that the "other evidence" we're not the cause of death.

I see it like this,
If there's a old man with breathing problems OR COPD OR Asthma OR is coughing becasue water went down the wrong pipe, and Someone who knew this puts a pillow over his face and holds it there for 9 minutes... because he was thrashing around "dangerously".
Do They get to claim that the man PROBABLY died of COPD etc?

is that being "honest"?
You posted what the states doctor concluded. The defense, when it is their turn, will most likely call a doctor(s) that will give a counter opinion that Mr. Floyd died of a Fentanyl overdose.

But again, I am not trying to argue this case one way or the other. I am saying, let ALL of the evidence come out and let the jury decide. I am NOT in the court room, I don't have access to the evidence presented by either side and I am not a doctor. While the video is pretty damning, I will say that it is a little misleading as the officers knee was NOT on the throat obstructing the airway. It was on the side of the neck.

This reminds me of when my son was in school and wrestling. He was an average at best wrestler who thought that he was better than he really was. Whenever he lost, he got mad and would at times make a scene.

At one meet, he was coming of the mat, throwing a fit and accusing the other wrestler of cheating or something. I grabbed him by the BACK OF THE NECK, on the complete opposite side of his windpipe, and guided him out of the gym where I could have a word with him. He immediate started acting like I was strangling him and cutting off his windpipe; he was being overly dramatic.

My point is that not all areas of the neck relate to airflow. The officer had his knee is the side of Floyd's neck, NOT obstructing his airway. Knowing that, I find it highly unlikely that this action specifically caused Mr. Floyds death. I believe that consuming(?) a large amount of Fentanyl had much more of an affect on his body that the knee in the neck.

Now again, I am NOT saying that the officer should not be punished for his actions and I really don't KNOW for sure what happened or what the actual cause of death was as again, I am not privy to the evidence. But it sounds like you have already made up your mind.

But let me ask you something, would you be so concerned about this case if the officer were black and the one in handcuffs was white? I sense that you are making this more about racism than anything else. If that is not the case, I apologize, but it just appears to come off this way.

Frankly, I could care less about the race of any of those involved. As an outsider, seeing the videos (not just the ones that have made the news, but the ones showing Floyd complaining about not being able to breath long before he was on the ground) I will say that In My Opinion, the officer is guilty of excessive force at the very least and possibly manslaughter. I see no need to pin someone in handcuffs to the ground the way he did. And while I don't believe that the knee in the neck killed Mr. Floyd, it sure didn't help him and may have contributed to his death.

But again, I don't know all of the evidence. We will have to wait to see what happens.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
You posted what the states doctor concluded. The defense, when it is their turn, will most likely call a doctor(s) that will give a counter opinion that Mr. Floyd died of a Fentanyl overdose.
So you're assuming the testimony is false.
based on?

Again for the record, today, the medically examiner that did the Autopsy on Floyd stated flatly the cause.
That yes there were drugs in Floyd's system, and yes he had also had heart disease. But he wrote that and stated in court that the CAUSE of death was "neck compression" during arrest.
he stated this unequivocally.
When asked if he thought the drugs were the cause he said "No".
That's why drug overdose is not stated as the cause on his original or subsequent reports.

SO again, it's similar to my hypothetical putting a pillow on the face of someone with asthma.
(which you did not reply to)
the Pillow was the cause, while the other factors simply made the person easier to kill.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
While the video is pretty damning, I will say that it is a little misleading as the officers knee was NOT on the throat obstructing the airway. It was on the side of the neck.
This reminds me of when my son was in school and wrestling. He was an average at best wrestler who thought that he was better than he really was. Whenever he lost, he got mad and would at times make a scene.
At one meet, he was coming of the mat, throwing a fit and accusing the other wrestler of cheating or something. I grabbed him by the BACK OF THE NECK, on the complete opposite side of his windpipe, and guided him out of the gym where I could have a word with him. He immediate started acting like I was strangling him and cutting off his windpipe; he was being overly dramatic.
My point is that not all areas of the neck relate to airflow. The officer had his knee is the side of Floyd's neck, NOT obstructing his airway. Knowing that, I find it highly unlikely that this action specifically caused Mr. Floyds death.
Trial testimony from wrestler and mixed martial artist on the scene during Floyd's murder.
Williams said he recognized from his mixed martial arts training that Chauvin was using a "blood choke" on Floyd, which he said could result in death by cutting off circulation. When he said that to Chauvin, he said Chauvin looked up at him.
Williams said Floyd's breathing was getting more and more labored. "He barely could move while he was trying to get air," Williams said. He said he saw Floyd's eyes rolling into the back of his head and blood coming out of his nose. Williams described watching Floyd "slowly fade away, like a fish in a bag," referring to the fish he had just caught.
Eventually, Williams said Floyd "didn't have no life in him no more."
Williams said officer Tou Thao, the officer who ordered bystanders to stay away from Floyd and Chauvin, told bystanders "this is what drugs do to you." Williams said that "pissed me off more, because that wasn't the case."...
Info on “Blood Chokes”
Blood chokes (or carotid restraints / sleeper holds) are a form of strangulation that compress one or both carotid arteries and/or the jugular veins without compressing the airway, hence causing cerebral ischemia and a temporary hypoxic condition in the brain.[6] A well applied blood choke may lead to unconsciousness in 10–20 seconds. Injury or death is plausible if the arteries remain constricted for more than 20 seconds. Compared to strangulation with the hands, properly applied blood chokes require little physical strength.[7] .

wiki and Restraint Asphyxia Library, Death From Law Enforcement Neck Holds 1982

the former Officer had his knee on his neck for 9 minutes not 20 seconds. obstructing blood (which carries oxygen) to the brain.
the Coroner also mentioned that because of Floyds heart condition his heart and body needed MORE air than most. and the panic would make his body work harder to get it.
Police trainers have mentioned that his position, face down with the cuffs would also hinder his ability to breath. Procedure, and even one of the other officers on the scene, mentions that Floyd ... at the least... should be put on his side instead to allow him to breath better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I believe that consuming(?) a large amount of Fentanyl had much more of an affect on his body that the knee in the neck.
the Coroner and Pulmonary Dr do not agree with you, they say the exact opposite. It’s their conclusion after examining the body 1st hand.
And seeing that you admit you’re not a doctor etc. why should you, or I, believe that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Now again, I am NOT saying that the officer should not be punished for his actions and I really don't KNOW for sure what happened or what the actual cause of death was as again, I am not privy to the evidence. But it sounds like you have already made up your mind.
You’ve got an opinion, you say without looking at all the evidence.
I’ve got an opinion looking at the evidence available so far. And yes it looks pretty clear to me.
the toxicology info does not rise to the level of enough to kill. While Chauvin did everything that would potentially lead to death.
And nothing to prevent or even try to revive Floyd.
I’m not sure what the defense can present that would clear Chauvin.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
But let me ask you something, would you be so concerned about this case if the officer were black and the one in handcuffs was white? I sense that you are making this more about racism than anything else. If that is not the case, I apologize, but it just appears to come off this way.
What gives you that sense? have I mention Race at all?
I was just as vocal and condemning of the cops that pushed over the old white man and sent him to the hospital with brain damage at a protest. And the case of the Cops in New Mexico (Arizona?) who shot the white mentally ill homeless man in the back and killed him and the white mentally ill homeless man that the cops beat to death as he cried for his mama, and the white man shot to death in his bed by cops who were told that drugs were being sold from his home.
It's an issue I've followed since the early 2000's
It's been disappointing to me that the label BLM has been stuck on what I believe is essentially an Abusive POLICING problem, with a race and poverty being a significant factor.
Rather than problem the NATION can worl on people's motives are questioned and those inclined to give the police the benny of the doubt in all cases have a excuse to ignore the problem. ASSUMING the complaints are race based. as well the knee jerk "anti-Police" label.

But GAClue, the Floyd case just happens to be in the news right now.
And as you say the video is “Damning”
But i have to say you and others have brought up Floyd far more than i have.
Usually to condemn BLM, Floyd, the media and others ....rather than Chauvin. Actually seemingly defending Chauvin.
Should I make any assumptions about you and others concerning racism based on that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Frankly, I could care less about the race of any of those involved. As an outsider, seeing the videos (not just the ones that have made the news, but the ones showing Floyd complaining about not being able to breath long before he was on the ground) I will say that In My Opinion, the officer is guilty of excessive force at the very least and possibly manslaughter. I see no need to pin someone in handcuffs to the ground the way he did. And while I don't believe that the knee in the neck killed Mr. Floyd, it sure didn't help him and may have contributed to his death.

But again, I don't know all of the evidence. We will have to wait to see what happens.
I’d Agree with that for the most part, But i’d say at the BARE minimum Manslaughter.
Rather than give Chauvin the benny of the doubt at all.
As I mentioned earlier, if you or I had done the same to someone, would we get a manslaughter charge?
Chavin was a senior police officer, trained in restraint and the effects of drugs so it seems to me that he should be held to a HIGHER standard than some random person who WITHOUT training and experience might “accidentally kill someone by placing a knee on their neck for 9 freaking minutes until there eye’s roll back in their heads.
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Old 04-10-2021, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Ok I guess i get why you don't like the idea there.

But for clarity, the point is simply this,
Gov't guidelines/procedures are sometimes counter productive, and are not always for our health and safety.... maybe even outright harmful.
Also both these practices, knees on necks and maskX2, happen to restrict breathing... with no other good purpose.

But hey go ahead and eat your gov't recommended Margarine, it's good for you.
And give the 3 year olds addictive Ritalin drugs for adhd like the "experts" proscribe.
The Gov't, the current majority experts and our elected officials know what's best... thinking for yourself is fine as long as you OBEY the gov't and experts right salt?
I mean evidence to the contrary is just "crazy" nonsense.
the gov't and police are always right and double plus good.
I don't eat margarine.
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