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Law & Order Discuss Knee on Neck or drugs at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by mr wonder For the record But hey, maybe all police should always put knees on the neck ...

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Old 04-10-2021, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
For the record



But hey, maybe all police should always put knees on the neck of everyone who claims they can't breath. Especially known drug users. the CDC recommends it, as well as putting 2 mask on the perps.
I don't think any defense attorney tried to get a client off the hook with the "My client is not guilty of murder because the victim was already dying of something else" defense. Maybe this will be the first.
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Old 04-10-2021, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post

At one meet, he was coming of the mat, throwing a fit and accusing the other wrestler of cheating or something. I grabbed him by the BACK OF THE NECK, on the complete opposite side of his windpipe, and guided him out of the gym where I could have a word with him. He immediate started acting like I was strangling him and cutting off his windpipe; he was being overly dramatic.

My point is that not all areas of the neck relate to airflow. The officer had his knee is the side of Floyd's neck, NOT obstructing his airway. Knowing that, I find it highly unlikely that this action specifically caused Mr. Floyds death. I believe that consuming(?) a large amount of Fentanyl had much more of an affect on his body that the knee in the neck.
You are right that not areas of the neck are related to air flow.Some of its related to blood flow. You restrict those then you can cause them to pass out.You can cause them to die if done incorrectly and for long periods of time.

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Old 04-12-2021, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
So you're assuming the testimony is false.
based on?
Is that what I said? No. I said that the defense will put up experts that will argue something else. Are you assuming that they will be lying? All I am saying is that there may be more than 1 opinion on the issue.


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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Again for the record, today, the medically examiner that did the Autopsy on Floyd stated flatly the cause.
That yes there were drugs in Floyd's system, and yes he had also had heart disease. But he wrote that and stated in court that the CAUSE of death was "neck compression" during arrest.
he stated this unequivocally.
When asked if he thought the drugs were the cause he said "No".
That's why drug overdose is not stated as the cause on his original or subsequent reports.

SO again, it's similar to my hypothetical putting a pillow on the face of someone with asthma.
(which you did not reply to)
the Pillow was the cause, while the other factors simply made the person easier to kill.
All I am saying is that the defense will challenge those assessments and that I will wait until ALL of the evidence is heard before making up my mind. Is that so wrong or do you believe we should just convict him based on the one sided news coverage about the incident?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Trial testimony from wrestler and mixed martial artist on the scene during Floyd's murder.
Williams said he recognized from his mixed martial arts training that Chauvin was using a "blood choke" on Floyd, which he said could result in death by cutting off circulation. When he said that to Chauvin, he said Chauvin looked up at him.
Williams said Floyd's breathing was getting more and more labored. "He barely could move while he was trying to get air," Williams said. He said he saw Floyd's eyes rolling into the back of his head and blood coming out of his nose. Williams described watching Floyd "slowly fade away, like a fish in a bag," referring to the fish he had just caught.
Eventually, Williams said Floyd "didn't have no life in him no more."
Williams said officer Tou Thao, the officer who ordered bystanders to stay away from Floyd and Chauvin, told bystanders "this is what drugs do to you." Williams said that "pissed me off more, because that wasn't the case."...
Info on “Blood Chokes”
Blood chokes (or carotid restraints / sleeper holds) are a form of strangulation that compress one or both carotid arteries and/or the jugular veins without compressing the airway, hence causing cerebral ischemia and a temporary hypoxic condition in the brain.[6] A well applied blood choke may lead to unconsciousness in 10–20 seconds. Injury or death is plausible if the arteries remain constricted for more than 20 seconds. Compared to strangulation with the hands, properly applied blood chokes require little physical strength.[7] .

wiki and Restraint Asphyxia Library, Death From Law Enforcement Neck Holds 1982

the former Officer had his knee on his neck for 9 minutes not 20 seconds. obstructing blood (which carries oxygen) to the brain.
the Coroner also mentioned that because of Floyds heart condition his heart and body needed MORE air than most. and the panic would make his body work harder to get it.
Police trainers have mentioned that his position, face down with the cuffs would also hinder his ability to breath. Procedure, and even one of the other officers on the scene, mentions that Floyd ... at the least... should be put on his side instead to allow him to breath better.
Great. How does any of this explain Floyd complaining that he couldn't breath before he was ever restrained on the ground?




Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the Coroner and Pulmonary Dr do not agree with you, they say the exact opposite. It’s their conclusion after examining the body 1st hand.
And seeing that you admit you’re not a doctor etc. why should you, or I, believe that?
I don't know, how about common sense? Fentanyl in large doses is known to cause many of the symptoms Floyd was exhibiting that day. This is from the American Addiction Centers website:

Quote:
What Are the Signs of a Fentanyl Overdose?
A person that is overdosing on fentanyl may exhibit the following signs and symptoms:2,7

Low blood pressure
Drowsiness
Dizziness
Nausea and vomiting
Limp body
Changes in pupillary size
Cold and clammy skin
Blue colored lips and fingernails (cyanosis)
Slowed or stopped breathing
Decreased heart rate
Reduced or loss of consciousness
Coma
https://americanaddictioncenters.org...tanyl-overdose

From what I have seen on the videos, and based on witness testimony, Floyd exhibited a number of these symptoms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
You’ve got an opinion, you say without looking at all the evidence.
I’ve got an opinion looking at the evidence available so far. And yes it looks pretty clear to me.
the toxicology info does not rise to the level of enough to kill. While Chauvin did everything that would potentially lead to death.
And nothing to prevent or even try to revive Floyd.
I’m not sure what the defense can present that would clear Chauvin.
My only opinion on this matter to this point is that more than 1 thing can be true at the same time. I said that the officer is not off the hook by any stretch of the imagination. At the very least, he should be found guilty of excessive force if not and up to Manslaughter. And that is just from what I have seen up to this point. Some would argue Murder 2 or 3 and I could also see that.

But again, all that I am saying is we should let BOTH sides show their evidence without jumping to conclusions. I believe this is how our judicial system is supposed to work.

My question is why are you so willing and eager in this case, to find this officer guilty? What is wrong with waiting to hear both sides of the arguments?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
What gives you that sense? have I mention Race at all?
I was just as vocal and condemning of the cops that pushed over the old white man and sent him to the hospital with brain damage at a protest. And the case of the Cops in New Mexico (Arizona?) who shot the white mentally ill homeless man in the back and killed him and the white mentally ill homeless man that the cops beat to death as he cried for his mama, and the white man shot to death in his bed by cops who were told that drugs were being sold from his home.
It's an issue I've followed since the early 2000's
It's been disappointing to me that the label BLM has been stuck on what I believe is essentially an Abusive POLICING problem, with a race and poverty being a significant factor.
Rather than problem the NATION can worl on people's motives are questioned and those inclined to give the police the benny of the doubt in all cases have a excuse to ignore the problem. ASSUMING the complaints are race based. as well the knee jerk "anti-Police" label.
As I stated earlier, if I am wrong on this then I apologize. I was simply asking the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
But GAClue, the Floyd case just happens to be in the news right now.
And as you say the video is “Damning”
But i have to say you and others have brought up Floyd far more than i have.
I don't believe that I have brought up Floyd much at all. I have responded to posts in different threads where this case was mentioned, but I have tried to leave it alone until the jury reaches a conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Usually to condemn BLM, Floyd, the media and others ....rather than Chauvin. Actually seemingly defending Chauvin.
Should I make any assumptions about you and others concerning racism based on that?
I don't need Floyd to criticize the organization of BLM nor the media. However, the Floyd case gives much more evidence to show both of those groups hypocrisy and lies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I’d Agree with that for the most part, But i’d say at the BARE minimum Manslaughter.
Rather than give Chauvin the benny of the doubt at all.
As I mentioned earlier, if you or I had done the same to someone, would we get a manslaughter charge?
Chavin was a senior police officer, trained in restraint and the effects of drugs so it seems to me that he should be held to a HIGHER standard than some random person who WITHOUT training and experience might “accidentally kill someone by placing a knee on their neck for 9 freaking minutes until there eye’s roll back in their heads.
Again, let's see all of the evidence. I could be wrong and will be more than willing to admit that. Did drugs and poor health contribute to Floyd's death? Sure they did. Would he have died if not for the actions of the officer involved? Maybe not. And if that is the case, the officer should be convicted of his crimes. And as I said, regardless of that conclusion, the officer should be convicted of excessive use of force.

Look, I don't think you and I are as far apart on this issue as you think we may be. I understand and have said that the video is pretty damning. All I am saying is that there is OTHER video that shows different angles and yet more evidence. Let's see ALL of it and hear all of the testimony before reaching a conclusion.
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Old 04-12-2021, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
You are right that not areas of the neck are related to air flow.Some of its related to blood flow. You restrict those then you can cause them to pass out.You can cause them to die if done incorrectly and for long periods of time.
I agree and I have not posted anything contrary to that. What I was pointing out was that the knee to the neck was not obstructing his airway and therefore was not preventing him from breathing. I made not claim that it was not blocking his arteries.

The issue that was being pointed out was that Floyd was complaining that he could not breath. That is what I was referring too, nothing else.

Also, Floyd was complaining of not begin able to breath long before he was pinned to the ground with a knee to his neck. Therefore the claim that the officer's knee prevented Floyd from being able to breath, does not make sense as he was exhibiting this problem before the knee was applied to the neck. But I made no claim that it didn't cause other issues.
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Old 04-12-2021, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I agree and I have not posted anything contrary to that. What I was pointing out was that the knee to the neck was not obstructing his airway and therefore was not preventing him from breathing. I made not claim that it was not blocking his arteries.

The issue that was being pointed out was that Floyd was complaining that he could not breath. That is what I was referring too, nothing else.

Also, Floyd was complaining of not begin able to breath long before he was pinned to the ground with a knee to his neck. Therefore the claim that the officer's knee prevented Floyd from being able to breath, does not make sense as he was exhibiting this problem before the knee was applied to the neck. But I made no claim that it didn't cause other issues.
OK, here you help make the point.
Let's say your assessment is correct, Floyd LOOKED LIKE someone SHOWING signs of a drugs or other problem. AND He clearly Stated he was having breathing problem many times. HOWEVER, the office decided to lay Floyd in a position where it's hard to breath AND put his knee on his neck for 9 minutes.

black, white, old, young, police, or civilian, It does not matter.
IMO ANYONE who does that, has committed a murder.
Those facts ALONE tell me that Chauvin killed the guy. being a trained experienced officer makes it MORE damning. he knows better.
It's not that Chauvin was just negligent or mistaken but that he positively and knowingly was acting against the life of Floyd.
Police should be held to a HIGHER standard than "civilians" in these cases. (why? Becasue they can do it while using the authority of the state to tell others to BACK OFF while they kill)
the apparent "passion" you see is based on those facts.
has been since the beginning.
And the other testimony, to date, has only reinforced my view. Medical, Personal relationship, Officer history etc.

You seem to be HOPING to blow up a drug excuse beyond the point of reason to overshadow those facts. While that the medical examiners and other Drs have already dismissed them outright. Seems clear the death by drugs notion should have "reasonable doubt" at this point.
But you also seem to downplay the damning facts that clearly put him at fault.
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:32 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I agree and I have not posted anything contrary to that. What I was pointing out was that the knee to the neck was not obstructing his airway and therefore was not preventing him from breathing. I made not claim that it was not blocking his arteries.

The issue that was being pointed out was that Floyd was complaining that he could not breath. That is what I was referring too, nothing else.

Also, Floyd was complaining of not begin able to breath long before he was pinned to the ground with a knee to his neck. Therefore the claim that the officer's knee prevented Floyd from being able to breath, does not make sense as he was exhibiting this problem before the knee was applied to the neck. But I made no claim that it didn't cause other issues.

I think most people who were claiming Floyd was choked to death weren't referring to his airflow being choked. But instead talking about the carotid artery on the side of his neck being choked off by Chauvin's knee. Doing that to someone for nine minutes would kill them regardless if they having drug complications or not. As far as I know a victim's health condition has never gotten a murderer off the hook. Has any defense attorney ever said yes your honor my client did stab the victim multiple times, but the victim was in the process of dying from an overdose, heart attack or some other fatal health condition?
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
OK, here you help make the point.
Let's say your assessment is correct, Floyd LOOKED LIKE someone SHOWING signs of a drugs or other problem. AND He clearly Stated he was having breathing problem many times. HOWEVER, the office decided to lay Floyd in a position where it's hard to breath AND put his knee on his neck for 9 minutes.

black, white, old, young, police, or civilian, It does not matter.
IMO ANYONE who does that, has committed a murder.
Those facts ALONE tell me that Chauvin killed the guy. being a trained experienced officer makes it MORE damning. he knows better.
It's not that Chauvin was just negligent or mistaken but that he positively and knowingly was acting against the life of Floyd.
Police should be held to a HIGHER standard than "civilians" in these cases. (why? Becasue they can do it while using the authority of the state to tell others to BACK OFF while they kill)
the apparent "passion" you see is based on those facts.
has been since the beginning.
And the other testimony, to date, has only reinforced my view. Medical, Personal relationship, Officer history etc.

You seem to be HOPING to blow up a drug excuse beyond the point of reason to overshadow those facts. While that the medical examiners and other Drs have already dismissed them outright. Seems clear the death by drugs notion should have "reasonable doubt" at this point.
But you also seem to downplay the damning facts that clearly put him at fault.
You appear to have some sort of emotional attachment to this case as you are assigning a position to me that I have not taken.

All I am saying is that while the officers actions were quite damning, there are also other factors involved. That is NOT to take away from the actions of this officer. But had Floyd been in good health and not on drugs, would he have still died? I don't know. Neither do you.

All I am saying is let's wait until ALL of the evidence is in before we condemn someone of murder.
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
I think most people who were claiming Floyd was choked to death weren't referring to his airflow being choked. But instead talking about the carotid artery on the side of his neck being choked off by Chauvin's knee. Doing that to someone for nine minutes would kill them regardless if they having drug complications or not.
I understand that and I am not disputing that in any way. What I was saying was that his airway was not being cut off and he had been complaining about not being able to breath prior to being restrained on the ground.

Did these actions by the officer cause his death? I don't know. They very well could have. But to try to dismiss the other mitigating factors involved, is disingenuous.
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Old 04-12-2021, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I understand that and I am not disputing that in any way. What I was saying was that his airway was not being cut off and he had been complaining about not being able to breath prior to being restrained on the ground.

Did these actions by the officer cause his death? I don't know. They very well could have. But to try to dismiss the other mitigating factors involved, is disingenuous.
The only way other factors will matter is if the defense can prove that its impossible to kill someone with their knee only on one carotid artery for almost nine minutes on a person who is having a drug overdose. If they can't do that then they be basically arguing that a murderer is innocent because of the victim's health problems or because the victim was dying of something else at the moment the murderer was murdering the victim.
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Old 04-12-2021, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Knee on Neck or drugs

The prosecution has built a very damning case against Mr. Chauvin. One who testified today was a respectable dr who still works icu a few days per week and is called upon to (with others) determine causes of death. And he's an expert on the heart and blood flow, breathing etc. has had many drug overdose cases alive and post mortem. did not take payment for his work in determining the cause of Mr Floyd's death. read toxicology, etc., saw all available videos. And he's not the only expert witness who says but for the knee on the neck George would be alive. He also named several times an intercedent, sitting him up or giving cpr could have saved him.
The defense is not lazy or stupid. They ask a myriad of questions to point more to drugs, possible heart problems, and more. However it is at this point not looking great for Derik.

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