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Law & Order Discuss Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Bat Is civil asset forfeiture ever okay? Years back, a coworker of mine was arrested and convicted ...

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Old 10-22-2017, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat View Post
Is civil asset forfeiture ever okay?

Years back, a coworker of mine was arrested and convicted of drunk driving. Since it was a first time offense she was issued a restricted drivers license with limited privilege. For example, travel to and from work, no driving between 8:00pm and 5:00am and zero BAC. Approximately 4 months later she was caught driving at 9:30pm and had a BAC of .09%. Direct violation of allowed travel times and not only alcohol in her system but it also exceeded the legal limit for DWI. She was tried and convicted. The police used civil asset forfeiture, seizing her vehicle and selling it at auction. The vehicle was worth about $15k and she still owed about $11k.

Now, obviously that (true) story is about somebody that was actually tried and convicted for her crimes. Additionally, the asset seized was used to commit her crimes. Different than much of the civil asset forfeiture used by the government to seize assets from "suspects" that have not been tried or convicted and where the assets may have no direct correlation to a crime.

Is civil asset forfeiture ever okay?
I don't think "CIVIL" asset forfeiture is constitutional.

In the case you describe the car wasn't even hers. it was the banks.
If the car had been owned by her outright with Zero debt. it would make more sense. But since it wasn't they effectively fined her another $11,000. w probably more with bank charges/penalties.

But the car did not break the law. the woman did. If her parents owned the car should the cops be able to take that as well? no. would they be a party to crime as well? what about the bartender or liquor store sales person? the alcohol He sold her was in her body as she committed the crime right? how far does it go?

But if a person has been convicted of a crime(s) and it can be shown that thier assets were likely purchased by proceeds from crimes. At that point i think criminal asset forfeiture is probably OK. But the burden of proof is on the STATE to prove it. It shouldn't be assumed and taken PRE-Trial and PRE-Conviction. and 3rd party owners should be totally exempt. If Law enforcement and prosecutors are afraid that assets may be transferred/sold/spent BEFORE they can convict, then make a law that the assets CAN'T be transferred until the trials are over under penalty of law. But i'd want strick stipulations even to a law like that.

As it is private motel owners have had their motels seized because people were in the parking lot selling drugs. As well as people just riding along the highway with cash that cops SUSPECT might be drug money.

Innocent until proven guilty should be 1st standard.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 10-22-2017 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 10-22-2017, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I don't think "CIVIL" asset forfeiture is constitutional.

In the case you describe the car wasn't even hers. it was the banks.
If the car had been owned by her outright with Zero debt. it would make more sense. But since it wasn't they effectively fined her another $11,000. w probably more with bank charges/penalties.

But the car did not break the law. the woman did. If her parents owned the car should the cops be able to take that as well? no. would they be a party to crime as well? what about the bartender or liquor store sales person? the alcohol He sold her was in her body as she committed the crime right? how far does it go?

But if a person has been convicted of a crime(s) and it can be shown that thier assets were likely purchased by proceeds from crimes. At that point i think criminal asset forfeiture is probably OK. But the burden of proof is on the STATE to prove it. It shouldn't be assumed and taken PRE-Trial and PRE-Conviction. and 3rd party owners should be totally exempt. If Law enforcement and prosecutors are afraid that assets may be transferred/sold/spent BEFORE they can convict, then make a law that the assets CAN'T be transferred until the trials are over under penalty of law. But i'd want strick stipulations even to a law like that.

As it is private motel owners have had their motels seized because people were in the parking lot selling drugs. As well as people just riding along the highway with cash that cops SUSPECT might be drug money.

Innocent until proven guilty should be 1st standard.
Innocent till proven guilty should be the only standard.

Worth noting is that the IRS has been doing the same thing for decades. They can and have seized all assets of individuals and companies based on the fact they were going to do an audit, leaving entities with no way to survive. IRS uses asset seizure as a negotiating tool.
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I don't think "CIVIL" asset forfeiture is constitutional.

In the case you describe the car wasn't even hers. it was the banks.
If the car had been owned by her outright with Zero debt. it would make more sense. But since it wasn't they effectively fined her another $11,000. w probably more with bank charges/penalties.

But the car did not break the law. the woman did. If her parents owned the car should the cops be able to take that as well? no. would they be a party to crime as well? what about the bartender or liquor store sales person? the alcohol He sold her was in her body as she committed the crime right? how far does it go?

But if a person has been convicted of a crime(s) and it can be shown that thier assets were likely purchased by proceeds from crimes. At that point i think criminal asset forfeiture is probably OK. But the burden of proof is on the STATE to prove it. It shouldn't be assumed and taken PRE-Trial and PRE-Conviction. and 3rd party owners should be totally exempt. If Law enforcement and prosecutors are afraid that assets may be transferred/sold/spent BEFORE they can convict, then make a law that the assets CAN'T be transferred until the trials are over under penalty of law. But i'd want strick stipulations even to a law like that.

As it is private motel owners have had their motels seized because people were in the parking lot selling drugs. As well as people just riding along the highway with cash that cops SUSPECT might be drug money.

Innocent until proven guilty should be 1st standard.
All good points mr. wonder.
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
Innocent till proven guilty should be the only standard.

Worth noting is that the IRS has been doing the same thing for decades. They can and have seized all assets of individuals and companies based on the fact they were going to do an audit, leaving entities with no way to survive. IRS uses asset seizure as a negotiating tool.
So do state taxing authorities.
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Most people support the police state until
they become a victim of it.
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

I smell bullshlt still.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:00 AM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

How do Americans deal with hypocrisy today?

You might live in a warm place and own a new iPhone and new car listening to good music with an excellent stereo after you ate a delicious dinner and feel pretty good about living in a free country, but how does being tracked and wiretapped 24/7 feel?

Americans may feel like they are good people even when they commit three felonies a day just by existing.

How do Americans justify paying taxes when their taxes fund rising debt, Obamacare, food stamps, regulations, US wars, illegal immigrants, nanny state laws, security cameras, license plate readers, checkpoints, redlight cameras, speed cameras, FBI facial and voice recognition, curfews, gun bans, NSA wiretapping, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, private prison quotas, no knock raids, take down notices, no fly lists, terror watch lists, Constitution free zones, stop and frisk, 3 strikes laws, kill switches, National Security Letters, DNA databases, kill lists, FBAR, FATCA, Operation Chokepoint, TSA groping, civil forfeiture, CIA torture, NDAA indefinite detention, secret FISA courts, FEMA camps, laws requiring passports for domestic travel, IRS laws denying passports for tax debts, gun and ammo stockpiles, laws outlawing protesting, police militarization, chain gangs, boot camps, and Jade Helm?

Americans might feel like they live in a moral country, but how can a nation that tortures and launches endless wars take the moral high ground on anything?

How could Americans not feel responsible for US wars, debt, and tyranny?

How would the founding fathers think about the collapse of the USA?

The American default reaction to hard facts seems to be to not think and to silence those who speak the truth, but facts don't cease to exist because they are ignored.

Future generations will ask why Americans didn't resist when the US became a police state.

One thing worse than learning that you live in a police state is finding out that no one cares.

The only realistic option left for a moral American seems to be to renounce your citizenship.
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Old 04-11-2018, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Taken: How Law Enforcement Grabs Private Property | The Daily Signal
When Stephen Mills learned that the Grady County Sheriff’s Department seized his Ford F-250 back in 2010, he figured it would be a matter of days before police returned the vehicle to him and his wife. It wasn’t. | http://dailysign.al/1Tcr251
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Stealing from the Citizenry: Civil Asset Forfeiture to Rob Us blind

Civil Asset Forfeiture could easily be banned if the news and entertainment media brought a lot of attention to it to outrage the public about it.
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