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Law & Order Discuss Why are cops so militaristic?! at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by FrancSevin We continually demand that our police forces be professional and effective. When they are, we scold ...

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Old 01-08-2017, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
We continually demand that our police forces be professional and effective. When they are, we scold them for being too effective.
Not sure anyone's scolding cops for be "too effective" Franc.
People ...and other officers... are "scolding" SOME cops and SOME Police Depts:
• for having a mindset or footing that assumes the public is the "enemy" rather than fellow community members to protect and serve.
• for clear inappropriate use of military weapons and tactics
• for protecting and covering for truly bad cops instead of turning them in.
• for assuming that lack of respect of an officer is to much for some cops to bear so they charge people with "resisting arrest" even if people have done nothing else.
• for seeming to apply a policy to escalate many minor situations in major issues instead of doing the opposite.
• for not following constitutional limits on searches and seizures and other rights.
• for having multiple standards of treatment for various citizens
• for harming and killing to many innocent people ...and animals... in various clearly unnecessary situations.
• for literally getting away with murders and going back to the job.


Most people acknowledge that police work is not easy, it's high stress, that cops get crap pay, that they sometimes get crap training and even crap equipment. They are often short staffed and over worked. That ...they like many in the military... get little to no psychological support after the trauma and stress they deal with. That they feel threatened daily from all sides. and more.
Those are also problems that need to be seriously addressed.

Getting nearly UNQUESTIONED moral support from much of the public is great but it doesn't address either set of problems. And all of the above issues play into each other seems to me.

My thing is that ..as a noble profession... somethings have gotten better but some worse and there is still room for improvement. and part of that is admitting that there are real problems.
Is that a crime?

If Doctors are saving tons of lives but there are some Drs that rotinuly are harming patients in various ways we don't just ASSUME that all Doctors are fighting for our lives. and that because they are MORE well trained now than 70 years ago that they can't do better ESPECIALLY when others doctors are sounding the alarms about various problem They see with the profession.
we don't destroy the Church becuase of pedophiles but we do expect and demand that the church get them out of there ranks. It does NO GOOD to say how GREAT MOST priest are, and what a hard job it is to deal with grieving families and broken marriages, domestic abuse, etc etc.

Seems to me there are real problems that won't go away by just ASSUMING the best and acting like everything police do is SOMEHOW always justified. And trying to generally shut down the conversation by assuming bad intent on the part of those who point out some problems doesn't help much either.
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Old 01-08-2017, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
Not sure anyone's scolding cops for be "too effective" Franc.
People ...and other officers... are "scolding" SOME cops and SOME Police Depts:
• for having a mindset or footing that assumes the public is the "enemy" rather than fellow community members to protect and serve.
• for clear inappropriate use of military weapons and tactics
• for protecting and covering for truly bad cops instead of turning them in.
• for assuming that lack of respect of an officer is to much for some cops to bear so they charge people with "resisting arrest" even if people have done nothing else.
• for seeming to apply a policy to escalate many minor situations in major issues instead of doing the opposite.
• for not following constitutional limits on searches and seizures and other rights.
• for having multiple standards of treatment for various citizens
• for harming and killing to many innocent people ...and animals... in various clearly unnecessary situations.
• for literally getting away with murders and going back to the job.


Most people acknowledge that police work is not easy, it's high stress, that cops get crap pay, that they sometimes get crap training and even crap equipment. They are often short staffed and over worked. That ...they like many in the military... get little to no psychological support after the trauma and stress they deal with. That they feel threatened daily from all sides. and more.
Those are also problems that need to be seriously addressed.

Getting nearly UNQUESTIONED moral support from much of the public is great but it doesn't address either set of problems. And all of the above issues play into each other seems to me.

My thing is that ..as a noble profession... somethings have gotten better but some worse and there is still room for improvement. and part of that is admitting that there are real problems.
Is that a crime?

If Doctors are saving tons of lives but there are some Drs that rotinuly are harming patients in various ways we don't just ASSUME that all Doctors are fighting for our lives. and that because they are MORE well trained now than 70 years ago that they can't do better ESPECIALLY when others doctors are sounding the alarms about various problem They see with the profession.
we don't destroy the Church becuase of pedophiles but we do expect and demand that the church get them out of there ranks. It does NO GOOD to say how GREAT MOST priest are, and what a hard job it is to deal with grieving families and broken marriages, domestic abuse, etc etc.

Seems to me there are real problems that won't go away by just ASSUMING the best and acting like everything police do is SOMEHOW always justified. And trying to generally shut down the conversation by assuming bad intent on the part of those who point out some problems doesn't help much either.
Effective might not have been the right word but the meaning of my point is the same.

When a cop stops us for speeding , scolds us for it, he is being "effective"

When a cop comes to a domestic dispute, they immediately take charge for their own safety, and that of everyone else. It seems rude but it is "effective.'


When a cop puts a perp down, when that perp is a young male, possibly black, but threatened the safety of others and refused to comply, that is also "effective." But we often scold them.

Being effective is the essence of being professional at any occupation. But second guessing our police is often now common entertainment done at the expense of officers and ultimately, public safety.

Perhaps you have a better word for that narrative?

But I have a more important request..... Has anyone here done ride alongs with the police? Walk in their shoes before you casually quote the Constitution.
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Old 01-08-2017, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

BTW I wasn't kidding. This is where it began. The cops were not ready for these guys being as well armed as they were. It led to the militarization in LA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

How the North Hollywood Shootout Changed Patrol Arsenals
The shootout gave law enforcement a compelling reason to better arm patrol officers with semi-automatic rifles.

How the North Hollywood Shootout Changed Patrol Arsenals - Article - POLICE Magazine

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Old 01-08-2017, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Effective might not have been the right word but the meaning of my point is the same.
When a cop stops us for speeding , scolds us for it, he is being "effective"
When a cop comes to a domestic dispute, they immediately take charge for their own safety, and that of everyone else. It seems rude but it is "effective.'
When a cop puts a perp down, when that perp is a young male, possibly black, but threatened the safety of others and refused to comply, that is also "effective." But we often scold them.
Being effective is the essence of being professional at any occupation. But second guessing our police is often now common entertainment done at the expense of officers and ultimately, public safety.
Perhaps you have a better word for that narrative?
I'm not sure the real complaints are about Police arresting real criminals. Some of the media and hype has been around borderline issues but the real questions are still there... undiminished.
so I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly there.

the issues that i'm concerned about are outlined in my previous.
Any complaints about regular police work, where people are in legitimate danger. .. not just selling illegal cigarettes or bootleg videos or playing with or holding toy guns... But in legitimate dangerous situation cops have to be as effective as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
But I have a more important request..... Has anyone here done ride alongs with the police? Walk in their shoes before you casually quote the Constitution.
I'm not sure why it's so important. I mean Is the constitution the law or not?
It's always odd to me when someone who is supposed to be ENFORCING the laws of the land (and their defenders) assumes the police DO NOT have to FOLLOW the law... exactly... to do their jobs. While they expect citizens to jump and obey with a smile every written and every unwritten rule.
I've never understood the double standard there.

Also do i have to be in the operating room watching a few good doctors, before I can comment on doctors who remove healthy organs over and over in surgeries to make their jobs easier before i can declare that they are committing crimes, it's unethical and corrupt?

And plus if you noticed my 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th post in this thread had former SWAT team Leaders , working Cops, Former beat Cops pointing out most of the points I outlined in my previous post. Seems they fit your ...unreasonable... criteria.
Are they worthy to be listened to Franc?

Again it seems to me that there's simply an attempt to dismiss or walk around any problems rather than try to honestly address them... or even acknowledge them.
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post


I'm not sure why it's so important. I mean Is the constitution the law or not?
It's always odd to me when someone who is supposed to be ENFORCING the laws of the land (and their defenders) assumes the police DO NOT have to FOLLOW the law... exactly... to do their jobs. While they expect citizens to jump and obey with a smile every written and every unwritten rule.
I've never understood the double standard there.


And plus if you noticed my 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th post in this thread had former SWAT team Leaders , working Cops, Former beat Cops pointing out most of the points I outlined in my previous post. Seems they fit your ...unreasonable... criteria.
Are they worthy to be listened to Franc?

Again it seems to me that there's simply an attempt to dismiss or walk around any problems rather than try to honestly address them... or even acknowledge them.
Ride alongs give a perspective not gained in any other setting. Making split second decisions, Constitutional ones, are fairly straight forward. Assuming, of course, the Constitution has not been recently re-defined.

We have politicians and judges creating quagmires on both the local and national level for our officers on the street. And a blood hungry press looking to sell media to salivaqting people who have no concept of the officers challenges and perspectives.

I'm just suggesting it is far easier to judge someone in who's shoes you have never walked.

I did ride alongs in a town near Chicago. A blue collar multi ethnic community with Uber liberal politicians. It created issues and did little to prevent bad cops like Scott Peterson. Yeah, I worked with that scum. He did not represent most of the officers on the force their. But liberal policies didn't deter him. And make it tough on the others.

Perhaps my experience has jaded my perspective but do not presume I am anything but a strict constitutionalist and full support and empathy for the men and women in blue.

A good discussion Mr. Wonder...; Thanks.
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Old 01-08-2017, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

Why do they take box company employees for ride alongs. In case they get boxed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Ride alongs give a perspective not gained in any other setting. Making split second decisions, Constitutional ones, are fairly straight forward. Assuming, of course, the Constitution has not been recently re-defined.

We have politicians and judges creating quagmires on both the local and national level for our officers on the street. And a blood hungry press looking to sell media to salivaqting people who have no concept of the officers challenges and perspectives.

I'm just suggesting it is far easier to judge someone in who's shoes you have never walked.

I did ride alongs in a town near Chicago. A blue collar multi ethnic community with Uber liberal politicians. It created issues and did little to prevent bad cops like Scott Peterson. Yeah, I worked with that scum. He did not represent most of the officers on the force their. But liberal policies didn't deter him. And make it tough on the others.

Perhaps my experience has jaded my perspective but do not presume I am anything but a strict constitutionalist and full support and empathy for the men and women in blue.

A good discussion Mr. Wonder...; Thanks.
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Old 01-08-2017, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
I think it began here in California in 1997

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PUrdoXpxLM
Holy sh*t, you said something I agree with and happens to be true.

I don't know how to react. This is uncharted territory. I'm scared.

On a serious note, Mikey is right. This was one of the early incidents to show our police need more military-like weapons and equipment.

Ya gotta keep up with the level the criminals do or you'll end up with an incident like the one Mikey posted.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
BTW I wasn't kidding. This is where it began. The cops were not ready for these guys being as well armed as they were. It led to the militarization in LA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

How the North Hollywood Shootout Changed Patrol Arsenals
The shootout gave law enforcement a compelling reason to better arm patrol officers with semi-automatic rifles.

How the North Hollywood Shootout Changed Patrol Arsenals - Article - POLICE Magazine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PUrdoXpxLM
Mikeyy, I think you are correct. This incident, along with others similar underscored the need for better law enforcement tools and and better training of LEO.

The second cause of the escalating of equipment is its availability. Much of the hardware is obsolete military surplus donated or sold for a pittance to LEO.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
Why do they take box company employees for ride alongs. In case they get boxed in?
I was a civil defense/disaster volunteer and later a Firefighter paramedic. After moving to St Louis, I was a volunteer firefighter for 11 more years. It is how I could best serve my community while pursuing a career in packaging.

Currently retired from active duty I am a packaging engineer, not an employee, who does consulting work for Fortune 500 companies and very little with "boxes."

Ride alongs put a second person in the car helping backup the officer. And with my training, it put emergency medical help on the scene immediately.

Assuming you have the balls,,,;You should try it.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Why are cops so militaristic?!

I have dived head first 75 feet down a pipe 18 inches wide by my feet to recover a drill head in freezing water in the dark. I'm just too bad ass to play with my balls.
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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I was a civil defense/disaster volunteer and later a Firefighter paramedic. After moving to St Louis, I was a volunteer firefighter for 11 more years. It is how I could best serve my community while pursuing a career in packaging.

Currently retired from active duty I am a packaging engineer, not an employee, who does consulting work for Fortune 500 companies and very little with "boxes."

Ride alongs put a second person in the car helping backup the officer. And with my training, it put emergency medical help on the scene immediately.

Assuming you have the balls,,,;You should try it.
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