Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > Political Forums > International Forum
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

International Forum Discuss Israel and it's Neighbors at the Political Forums; Man some of my threads just get buried way to quickly.. I like this persons attitude. More people should say ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:45 PM
mlurp's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Flatlands
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Thanks: 18,304
Thanked 10,538 Times in 8,217 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Man some of my threads just get buried way to quickly.. I like this persons attitude. More people should say the same thing I would add.


Quote:
How to save Gaza: A Palestinian American argues it’s time to bring in the UN and stop blaming Israel

but the UN won't solve a thing..

Ten years ago, terrible events were unfolding in my native Gaza Strip. The Fatah-Hamas conflict was escalating, and all signs were pointing to an outcome that many in the George W. Bush administration did not want to believe was coming.

Despite millions of dollars in cash and arms from Arab countries and the United States, Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas misplayed his hand and failed to stop Hamas’ violent military takeover of the coastal enclave, thereby raising tensions within Palestinian communities and with Israel.

By sheer coincidence, the very day the Islamist movement declared Gaza under its full control, June 14, 2007, my interview for political asylum status in the United States was underway.

Now, as an American citizen living in San Francisco, I can write about my experiences and perspectives in ways that many in Gaza cannot, fearing only that my parents, siblings and other family members who remain there are not held responsible for my opinions. My folks are sometimes jealous of my ability to speak my mind and remind me frequently to consider the implications for them of what I say.

While Israel continues to play a significant role in Gaza’s affairs, the grim anniversary of the Hamas takeover warrants focusing less on Israel than the role that Palestinian political organizations have played in worsening the misery for Gaza’s more than 2 million residents. And that has led me to conclude that the United Nations, for all its problems and the hate it incurs by Israelis, is perhaps Gazans’ best hope for progress.

After Hamas won local and parliamentary elections in 2006, Fatah — led by Abbas — was reluctant to relinquish executive authority to what it believed was an incompetent ideological group, unfit to govern and lacking the international recognition necessary for success. Hamas, on the other hand, felt emboldened by its popular victory to take the helm from Fatah, whose corruption had reached epic proportions that caused many — even some seculars — to vote for Hamas, hoping for change.

The years that followed have proved that change remains elusive. Gazans’ hope for a better life was never realized.

.................................................. ..... Continued At Site
http://jewishjournal.com/cover_story...laming-israel/

Several Other articles about this mess, here.

https://nortonsafe.search.ask.com/we...ctype=&tpr=121
__________________



_ ... _ Improvise-Adapt-Over Come ... _ ...
Reply With Quote
  #102 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2017, 01:19 AM
mlurp's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Flatlands
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Thanks: 18,304
Thanked 10,538 Times in 8,217 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Dang we used to discuss items in this thread.. I guess supporting the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund by way of our Govt foreign give away to the Jew Haters has all of us shamed... If not then read this and become SHAMED.

Plus the latest attack below this..


Quote:

Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...y_Martyrs_Fund

Also check other sites

https://nortonsafe.search.ask.com/we...ctype=&tpr=121


I add the reason I bring this up..

Quote:
Relative says gunmen prayed at shrine

14 July 2017


JERUSALEM (AP) — The Latest on an attack by Palestinian gunmen in Jerusalem holy site (all times local):

2:40 p.m.

A relative says three Palestinian assailants who killed two Israeli policemen from inside a Jerusalem holy site were devout Muslims who frequently visited the shrine.

Police have identified the assailants as Arab citizens of Israel and members of the Jabareen clan.

A relative, Yehiyeh Jabareen, says clan members are in shock over Friday's attack at the holy site, a walled compound revered by both Muslims and Jews.

Israel's police chief says the attackers used weapons stored inside the compound and opened deadly fire on a police patrol.

Yehiyeh Jabareen told The Associated Press that the two younger attackers, both 19, belonged to a kick-boxing club. He says the older relative, a 29-year-old, was unemployed and had health problems.
https://pilotonline.com/news/nation-...45ec797a6.html

The oldest was sick & unemployed so he decides to bring the other two into his make money deal... So each cash stipend to the families of Palestinians killed, injured or imprisoned for attacking, killing Jews..



Quote:
The Palestinian Incentive Program for Killing Jews
Mahmoud Abbas may not be able to stop the knife attacks. But he shouldn't pay the killers' families.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...r-killing-jews



Search Page:


https://nortonsafe.search.ask.com/we...ver=22.9.1.12&
locale=en_US&doi=2017-01-25&guid=FF5183E6-9977-4F4B-B6F7-5BAE41F6AF28&o=APN11920&ctype=&tpr=121


Get this bill to Trump now!


Quote:
Bill in Congress would pressure Palestinian gov't to cut off terror-tied payments
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-payments.html
__________________



_ ... _ Improvise-Adapt-Over Come ... _ ...
Reply With Quote
  #103 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2017, 12:59 PM
mlurp's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Flatlands
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Thanks: 18,304
Thanked 10,538 Times in 8,217 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

The M.E. is st[ I]ll [/I][ crapo auto type... ] hot as Israel makes another
air strike on Syria...........


Israel strikes Syrian ‘military targets’ near Damascus' – reports

RT News

Published time: 1 Dec, 2017 23:53-Edited time: 2 Dec, 2017 07:47

The Israeli Defense Forces launched several missiles at a strategic target close to the Syrian capital Damascus, Israeli and Arab media reported, saying it was an airstrike.
Syrian state TV said “military positions” were targeted by surface-to-surface missiles.

Several missiles were reportedly fired toward a target in the countryside south of Damascus, with some intercepted by the Syrian Air Defense and others hitting their intended target.
................................................ Continued At][/U]

https://www.rt.com/news/411688-israe...cus-airstrike/
__________________



_ ... _ Improvise-Adapt-Over Come ... _ ...
Reply With Quote
  #104 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:05 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,967
Thanks: 1,428
Thanked 2,127 Times in 1,676 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlurp View Post
Dang we used to discuss items in this thread..
And so we should but we must focus on what's necessary for peace today as opposed to addressing every injustice by each side in past. Trying to address the past will not move Israel or the Palestinians to a peace agreement.

Arguably crucial to this is honesty and in all honesty it should be pointed out that officially the Palestinians are not anti-Jewish (anti-Semite). The Palestinians are anti-Zionist.

Zionism =/= Judaism

This is clarified by both the PLO Charter and the Hamas Charter.

PLO Charter (1964) - Official Palestinian charters | PMW
Hamas Islamic Resistance - A Document of General Principles and Policies

There are obviously two different political factions when we address the Palestinians. There's the Palestinian Authority that has historically be been the representatives of the Palestinians in peace negotiations and then there's Hamas that's far more violent and, as noted in it's charter, has been committed to the removal of all "Zionists" from Palestine.

Let's start with what the Palestinian Authority has offered when it comes to a peace agreement with Israel.

The Palestinian Authority has fundamentally offered a peace agreement based upon the criteria established by the unanimous vote of the UN Security Council in Resolution 242.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Unite...Resolution_242

Key to UNSC 242 is the following requirement that would apply to Israel and the Palestinians:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

This is the "Peace Statement" that ends the hostility. It is the two state solution that provides both Israel and the Palestinian nations with mutual recognition.

The territorial issue is also addressed in UNSC 242 as it requires the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Palestinian territory that Israel occupied in it's 1967 war against Egypt, Jordan, (Iraq) and Syria (not the Palestinians).

The pre-1967 borders do represent a potential security issue for both Israel and Palestine and security is obviously a legitimate concern for both nations.

Israel, based upon it's own security concerns, has in the past has put forward two proposals I'm aware of. First was that Palestine be a "non-military" state and the second was that Israel would continue it's deployment of the IDF in Palestinian territory.

These measures, based upon the 1967 borders, would address the security of Israel but did not address the security of Palestine. The Palestinian Authority countered this proposal with one of it's own that would provide security for both Israel and Palestine.

Quote:
February 3, 2014

The Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, has proposed that a Nato force led by the United States stay in a future Palestinian state indefinitely to guarantee security.
https://www.thenational.ae/world/abb...posal-1.256822

Palestine would be a non-military nation and NATO troops, deployed wherever they choose to in the Palestinian territory, would provide for mutual security for both Israel and Palestine. NATO would ensure that there are no armed attacks by Palestinians, such as rocket attacks against Israel, as well as ensuring that Israel would not attack the Palestinians.

This provision that the Palestinian Authority proposed actually goes one step beyond the Section 2.c provisions in UNSC 242 that only proposed demilitarized zones. NATO military forces (not UN peacekeeping forces) would remain indefinitely in the Palestinian territory until such a time as it was determined that no security threat existed between the two nations.

So the issues of mutual recognition of sovereignty, establishment of territory, and the mutual security of both nations are addressed by the Palestinian Authority proposals that are based upon a unanimously adopted UN Security Council Resolution.

The potential fly in the ointment is HAMAS.

The Hamas Charter calls for the expulsion of the Zionists from Palestine. There was news a few years ago that Hamas was willing to accept a two-state solution but leaders of Hamas immediately repudiated that claims stating it was a misunderstanding of what was said.

But there is one thing that does establish that Hamas would accept the two-state solution. The vote of the Palestinian people.

Quote:
28 September, 2007
Milli Gazette
New Delhi, 28 Sept 2007 (MG): In an exclusive interview with the Delhi-based The Milli Gazette, Hamas supremo Khalid Mish’al said that “things are moving in our favour. It is true that we are badly suffering. The siege is harsh. But the fact remains that Israel too is no longer able to settle things against us.”

The interview was conducted with the Hamas leader in Damascus by the Gazette editor Zafarul-Islam Khan. The full text will appear in the 1 October issue of the paper.

Hamas leader reiterated in the interview his movement’s stand on the “acceptable minimum” in a peace deal with Israel while hinting at the same time that anything acceptable to the Palestinian people in a plebiscite will be acceptable to Hamas which, he said, has accepted the democratic game and will accept its results too.
Hamas To Accept Anything Accepted By Palestinians In A Pblebiscite By Khalid Mish’al & Zafarul-Islam Khan

In recent years Hamas has repeatedly stated that it will accept the will of the Palestinian people based upon the vote of the Palestinian people. This is basically a willingness by Hamas to accept self-determination by the Palestinian people.

I would suggest that the same criteria should be used by Israel and, in fact, it should have been the process in 1947-48 when the UN General Assembly recommended the partition plan for Palestine in UNGA Resolution 181.

The people, not their representatives in government, should have the right of self-determination.

The peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis is potentially possible but first the above conditions, offered by the Palestinian authority, must be accepted in principle by the Israeli government. Then let the people decide.

I would note two problems I find with the proposal.

1. The territorial division of Palestine into a Palestinian Jewish state and a Palestinian Arab state is not equitable as was proposed in UNGA 181 (that the Israeli Declaration of Independence references as the authority for the State of Israel). The Palestinian Jewish state ends up with the vast majority of the territory and natural resources of Palestine.

2. While Jerusalem would once again be divided into E. Jerusalem and W. Jerusalem this does not resolve the issues of both the Arabs and Jewish claims related to Jerusalem. I would suggest the same remedy that the UN General Assembly recommended in UNGA 181 where Jerusalem would be a unified international city that was not a part of either Israel or Palestine. Both Israel and Palestine could have their government offices and the "capital" of their respective nations in Jerusalem but the actual city would be an international city.

Peace is possible and all of the conditions for peace and security have been addressed.
__________________
BREAKING NEWS
Mexico agrees to pay for the impeachment.
~ Vicente Fox
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ShivaTD For This Useful Post:
  #105 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2017, 02:28 PM
mlurp's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Flatlands
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Thanks: 18,304
Thanked 10,538 Times in 8,217 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

At this point in time, I perfer to sit back and allow the President to deal with it all.
Seems he is want[ i ]ng [i ]t done[/I][/I] and settled soon. If not [ i]t could lead to WWIII[/I]
__________________



_ ... _ Improvise-Adapt-Over Come ... _ ...
Reply With Quote
  #106 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:09 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,967
Thanks: 1,428
Thanked 2,127 Times in 1,676 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlurp View Post
At this point in time, I perfer to sit back and allow the President to deal with it all.
Seems he is want[ i ]ng [i ]t done[/I][/I] and settled soon. If not [ i]t could lead to WWIII[/I]
President Trump has arguably made peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians (as well as other Muslim countries) virtually impossible today.

Quote:
WASHINGTON/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - President Donald Trump on Wednesday reversed decades of U.S. policy and recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, imperiling Middle East peace efforts and upsetting the Arab world and Western allies alike.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rec...010255132.html

While there are members of Congress that are both Democrats and Republicans that advocate the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel that recognition was always conditional upon Israel reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians. Trump just tossed that policy into the trash can by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel with zero concessions by Israel.

The United States held the trust of the Palestinians because we'd always acted in a neutral manner in attempts to broker a peace agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Trump just dumped our neutrality into the trash can and we'll never be able to regain that neutrality where we could assist in brokering a peace agreement to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel also provides the US sanction for the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Israel no longer has any reason to negotiate the withdrawal of any of the illegal settlements and if those settlements remain then 80% of all the West Bank will belong to Israel.

Trump's actions, based upon his complete ignorance and incompetence as President, are opposed worldwide by the largest coalition of nations I'm aware of. From Germany and the UK to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait there's condemnation of Trump because it's going to cause a war in the Middle East that ultimately threatens the very existence of Israel. Americans throughout the Middle East have been warned that they face significant danger and all of our embassies are at the highest alert level in expectation of violence being committed against them.

There's serious doubt on my part that there will ever be peace until Israel no longer exists because of Trump's actions. That's what Donald Trump has managed to accomplish today.

If this leads to WW III then we have Donald Trump to thank for that war.
__________________
BREAKING NEWS
Mexico agrees to pay for the impeachment.
~ Vicente Fox

Last edited by ShivaTD; 12-07-2017 at 12:18 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ShivaTD For This Useful Post:
  #107 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:16 AM
cnredd's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Gender: Male
Posts: 51,986
Thanks: 1,963
Thanked 31,718 Times in 18,543 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
President Trump has arguably made peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians (as well as other Muslim countries) virtually impossible today.
...because everything has been going OH so well for the last 50 years...

Reminder...

JUST LAST JUNE the Senate voted 90-0 to celebrate the anniversary of Israel and to MOVE THE EMBASSY to Jerusalem...

Senate Unanimously Calls For Trump To Move US Embassy To Jerusalem

Quote:
The Senate has passed a resolution that calls for President Donald Trump to make a drastic break from both his Democratic and Republican predecessors and move the U.S. embassy in Israeli from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Last Thursday, Trump followed in the footsteps of his predecessors and signed a waiver that delays the embassy relocation. Trump promised to move the embassy to Jerusalem during the campaign. He said he is delaying the move as he hopes to advance a peace negotiation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, which was passed by Congress to establish the embassy’s move, allows for the president to delay it for six-month intervals in the interest of national security.

Despite this justification, the Senate has now passed a bipartisan resolution on a 90-0 vote for “commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Six Day War and the reunification of the city of Jerusalem,” which also “calls upon the President and all United States officials” to follow the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995.

Senate Leadership was united behind this resolution, with Politico quoting Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell as saying “While we know that Israel continues to face a number of threats, bipartisan passage of this resolution will serve as yet another indication of the United States’ commitment to standing by our Israeli friends.”

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer shared this sentiment, saying in a statement that, “I am proud to sponsor this resolution, which reaffirms the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 that states Jerusalem should remain an undivided city and Israel’s capital – in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are celebrated, valued and protected.”
90 friggin' Senators voted to move the embassy...Trump is doing nothing more than implementing what the senate asked for...with ZERO DISSENT...

Of course, all Trump's fault...
__________________
"You get the respect that you give" - cnredd
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cnredd For This Useful Post:
  #108 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:18 AM
saltwn's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Esto perpetua
Posts: 73,554
Thanks: 52,997
Thanked 25,314 Times in 17,972 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to saltwn
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
...because everything has been going OH so well for the last 50 years...

Reminder...

JUST LAST JUNE the Senate voted 90-0 to celebrate the anniversary of Israel and to MOVE THE EMBASSY to Jerusalem...

Senate Unanimously Calls For Trump To Move US Embassy To Jerusalem

90 friggin' Senators voted to move the embassy...Trump is doing nothing more than implementing what the senate asked for...with ZERO DISSENT...

Of course, all Trump's fault...
bad deal; hide and watch
Reply With Quote
  #109 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:59 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,967
Thanks: 1,428
Thanked 2,127 Times in 1,676 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
...because everything has been going OH so well for the last 50 years...

Reminder...

JUST LAST JUNE the Senate voted 90-0 to celebrate the anniversary of Israel and to MOVE THE EMBASSY to Jerusalem...

Senate Unanimously Calls For Trump To Move US Embassy To Jerusalem

90 friggin' Senators voted to move the embassy...Trump is doing nothing more than implementing what the senate asked for...with ZERO DISSENT...

Of course, all Trump's fault...
This was merely a reaffirmation of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 that was predicated upon the 1993 Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (Oslo Accords) where Israel was to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and the final resolution of the status of Jerusalem was to be accomplished within five years.

Quote:
(11) The September 13, 1993, Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements lays out a timetable for the resolution of ‘‘final status’’ issues, including Jerusalem.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-1...-104publ45.pdf

Israel has not fulfilled it's obligations under the Oslo Accords and, in fact, is in gross violation of those accords by allowing the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory in the West Bank.
Declaration of Principles

While the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 did authorize pre-planning for moving the US Embassy it cannot be moved until the final resolution on the status of Jerusalem is reached between the Israelis and the Palestinians. That has not been accomplished so effectively the US would be moving our embassy into disputed territory that Israel has no right to until a final resolution is achieved.

We can also note that Trump's actions have already ignited protests and violence across the Middle East and have fueled the flames of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Intensification of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Middle East is not in America's national security interests.
__________________
BREAKING NEWS
Mexico agrees to pay for the impeachment.
~ Vicente Fox
Reply With Quote
  #110 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:00 AM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,171
Thanks: 7,687
Thanked 6,483 Times in 3,935 Posts
Default Re: Israel and it's Neighbors

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
This was merely a reaffirmation of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 that was predicated upon the 1993 Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (Oslo Accords) where Israel was to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and the final resolution of the status of Jerusalem was to be accomplished within five years.


https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-1...-104publ45.pdf

Israel has not fulfilled it's obligations under the Oslo Accords and, in fact, is in gross violation of those accords by allowing the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory in the West Bank.
Declaration of Principles

While the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 did authorize pre-planning for moving the US Embassy it cannot be moved until the final resolution on the status of Jerusalem is reached between the Israelis and the Palestinians. That has not been accomplished so effectively the US would be moving our embassy into disputed territory that Israel has no right to until a final resolution is achieved.

We can also note that Trump's actions have already ignited protests and violence across the Middle East and have fueled the flames of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Intensification of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Middle East is not in America's national security interests.
First, just to clarify, President Trump did not announce plans to move the embassy. President Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel, and directed State to make plans. If the move happens, it will not be for 3 or 4 years.

As I read the 1995 act, while it references the '93-'94 resolution, it stands alone. There is nothing to stop an embassy move in the '95 act. Disputed territory or not, we already have physical facility's in Jerusalem so it's mostly a matter of changing signs.

What Congress did in June was directed President Trump to stop with the 6 month extensions and do the deed. President Trump did just that.

I could care less if the Muslim world is pissed. They have been pissed for decades and will be pissed for decades in the future. The mid east understands might, not talk. If that were not true, after decades of talk we would all be dancing around the bonfire and singing kum ba ya instead of fighting Muslims in dozens of countries.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
and, israel, neighbors

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0