'Israel Loves Iran' initiative takes off on Facebook

[rivrrat]

Originally Posted by lackluster

Of course it bore relevance, since it backed up my contention

What contention? The incorrect bull**** assumption that the "consensus within Islam" is that apostates be put to death?

How did it back that up? Please show me quotes on how that wikipedia article backed up your "contention" that nearly 2 billion people believe that.

[lackluster]

Originally Posted by Coyote

If it were "a few dissenting voices" I'd agree but if you read the entire section it is clear that there is conflict as to what apostasy is and what it's punishment should be.

Another point of clarity: dishonest agendas (or, to be accurate - yours). Unlike any other religion, you treat Islam as if it were static and unchanging or unchangeable. That's a false premise as slowly but surely we are seeing it is anything but that. While far too many of it's followers still exist in a Medivevil cultural mindset - scholarly voices of change, are emerging and being heard and that goes hand in hand with material that exists in the Quran through different ways of interpreting it. Islam is going through it's reformation and has done that in the US and other countries. Globalism and social media opens the door.

You really do need to learn the concept of a few exceptions not disproving her rule. If I said gay marriage was frowned upon in Christianity, for instance, your pointing out the fact you found a small minority that didn't would only show the desperate measures you would be wiling to undertake in order to adhere to an untenabe position.

[rivrrat]

Originally Posted by lackluster

You really do need to learn the concept of a few exceptions not disproving her rule. If I said gay marriage was frowned upon in Christianity, for instance, your pointing out the fact you found a small minority that didn't would only show the desperate measures you would be wiling to undertake in order to adhere to an untenabe position.

Apparently you really need to learn the concept of what a "small minority" is. It'll help you identify the extremists.

[Coyote]

Originally Posted by lackluster

You really do need to learn the concept of a few exceptions not disproving her rule. If I said gay marriage was frowned upon in Christianity, for instance, your pointing out the fact you found a small minority that didn't would only show the desperate measures you would be wiling to undertake in order to adhere to an untenabe position.

At what point does a lack of consensus become the "exceptions" ?

Here from Wikipedia:

According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for women life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by modern Muslim scholars (e.g. Hasan al-Turabi), who argue that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[42] These scholars regard apostasy as a serious crime, but argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quote as insufficient justification for capital punishment. Today apostasy is illegal in most Muslim countries, and subject in some to the death penalty. Executions for apostasy are rare, but allowed in some Muslim countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey.[43]

So yes, it's illegal in most Muslim dominated countries but the view is also changing (kind of like the blue laws) and, execution is rare and only allowed in some countries. What is important is that the view is changing and it is through their interpretation of the Quran that it is changing but the only thing that will truly change it is the same thing that changed it in Christianity - a secular government and a seperation of religion from state.

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Coyote

At what point does a lack of consensus become the "exceptions" ?

Here from Wikipedia:


So yes, it's illegal in most Muslim dominated countries but the view is also changing (kind of like the blue laws) and, execution is rare and only allowed in some countries. What is important is that the view is changing and it is through their interpretation of the Quran that it is changing but the only thing that will truly change it is the same thing that changed it in Christianity - a secular government and a seperation of religion from state.

The haters just get used to hate.

It gets so familiar to them, that "not hating", invokes a "fear reflex" in them, which, in turn, reaffirms their hatred. And in the end, it has nothing to do with the people they are hating.

[Oftencold]

Originally Posted by Coyote

If it were "a few dissenting voices" I'd agree but if you read the entire section it is clear that there is conflict as to what apostasy is and what it's punishment should be.

Another point of clarity: dishonest agendas (or, to be accurate - yours). Unlike any other religion, you treat Islam as if it were static and unchanging or unchangeable. That's a false premise as slowly but surely we are seeing it is anything but that. While far too many of it's followers still exist in a Medivevil cultural mindset - scholarly voices of change, are emerging and being heard and that goes hand in hand with material that exists in the Quran through different ways of interpreting it. Islam is going through it's reformation and has done that in the US and other countries. Globalism and social media opens the door.

Yet again I point out, Islam is immensely resistant to change. It is founded on unchangeability. The Koran is not see as the word of God delivered through inspired prophets, it is held to be and claims to be the direct unchanging eternal word of God.

Here, you tell us how you reform a religion with this Writ, remember now the Hadith may be and are, debated, but the Koran comes straight from Allah:

The Islamic 'tolerance' is practiced by three Hadiths, attributed to Muhammad: "Whosoever disputes a single verse of the Qur'an, strike off his head" (Sunan Ibn Majah); "The Prophet said, whosoever changes his religion, kill him" (Sahih al-Bukhari); and "There is no community from which you cannot bring me Muslim from them, and the best I like is that you kill the men and bring me the women and children" (al-Tirmithi). Source

I was going to poise more reference material, then it hit me: you won't rebut it or even discuss what I've already posted. If anything you;ll just say something vague abut bigotry and hatred, and ignore the cold hard and lethal facts. I dare you to prove me wrong.

[Coyote]

Originally Posted by Oftencold

Yet again I point out, Islam is immensely resistant to change. It is founded on unchangeability. The Koran is not see as the word of God delivered through inspired prophets, it is held to be and claims to be the direct unchanging eternal word of God.

Most of the objectionable things about Islam - for instance Sharia - come out of the Hadith and the Koran itself, like the Bible, can be contradictory.

I don't see the difference between the text being the direct word of God or the word of God delivered through a prophet. In fact, there is a considerable portion of Christians who believe in the Bible's inerrancy - that even though it was delivered through a prophet it IS the word of God not the "interpreted word of God":

"Conservative Christians generally believe that God inspired the authors and redactors of the Bible. Hence, they wrote material that was error-free. Advocates of biblical inerrancy take the position that although none of the original manuscripts currently exist, scholars are able to produce a product that is as near as possible to the original and that it can confidently be said to be the authoritative Word of God."

Yet that religion was able to change from it's barbaric beginnings and continues to do so to this day despite attempts by some adherents to drag it back to the dark ages.

Resistant to change is not the same as unchangeable and change IS occurring.

Here, you tell us how you reform a religion with this Writ, remember now the Hadith may be and are, debated, but the Koran comes straight from Allah:

The Islamic 'tolerance' is practiced by three Hadiths, attributed to Muhammad: "Whosoever disputes a single verse of the Qur'an, strike off his head" (Sunan Ibn Majah); "The Prophet said, whosoever changes his religion, kill him" (Sahih al-Bukhari); and "There is no community from which you cannot bring me Muslim from them, and the best I like is that you kill the men and bring me the women and children" (al-Tirmithi). Source

The first step would be to get it right - the entire quote in the right historical context. For example - the al-Tirmithi quote I can only find on two sites - this one, and Two Faces of Islam and Abrogation The Hizb ut-Tahrir Watch a clearly anti-muslim site.

In other words, like you would with certain controversial biblical quotes demanding killing of all adults, leaving only children to rape.

I was going to poise more reference material, then it hit me: you won't rebut it or even discuss what I've already posted. If anything you;ll just say something vague abut bigotry and hatred, and ignore the cold hard and lethal facts. I dare you to prove me wrong.

I'll do my best.

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Oftencold

Yet again I point out, Islam is immensely resistant to change.

That's not what the Iranian's said in response.