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History, Geography, & Military Discuss Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct' at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by mr. wonder I have to say this a valid point. the reactions to the PPhood tapes were ...

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2015, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I have to say this a valid point.
the reactions to the PPhood tapes were to assume the worst from beginning to end. and some even rode the horse of questioned the ethics and legality of the practice of undercover tapes in general.
It may be a bit "off topic" but it's appropriate to note that there is a very clear double standard here. And it wouldn't hurt anyone to acknowledge it. The right denies the Downing St memo, and Wiki leak or Anonymous gov't docs that don't line up with Republican views of the world. Both sides are often irrationally "skeptical" of info that hurts their world views.
......
There is no double-standard with the PP example.
You're essentially trying to use a situation where people modified the tapes deceptively and using that to deride all "undercover" investigation. Ignoring MULTIPLE things that have been exposed about the tapes / situation that the right habitually refuses to address.
You're using a situation where the PP tape supposed "claims" have never been independently documented. If they had enough profit off this to bring about buying fancy cars, it would be in their books!
How about where the PP tape takers themselves plead the fifth when they were going to be asked questions about their tapes in a court of law.

If ANYBODY could come up with independent verification that fetal parts were being sold for profit, that would be something.
When NOBODY can come up with ANY independent verification that fetal parts are being sold for profit (after several state investigations and a federal congressional), that is ALSO SOMETHING.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:33 AM
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Post Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
but to the topic itself.
it's tragic and hypocritical of the VA "doctors" to treat people this way. The article says the doctors were "reprimanded". WTH? is that it? These docs are flushing men out of service for bogus reasons, misdiagnosing and allowing suciicidal thoughts to idle but they get to keep their jobs?

and then there's an "internal" investigation.
It's the same pattern with bad police or bad IRS, or bad SCC, etc..
"just a few bad apples" (that are allowed to stay) nothing systematic to see here.... move along.

well I'm glad the guy had the tapes. If he had just told people they probably would have just called him crazy.
I guess now the real question is can they get traction.

Problems with treatment of Veterans (both medical and psychiatric) have sadly been LONG documented.
Stewart: U.S. Has Long History of Thanking Vets by ‘F*cking Them Over’ | Mediaite
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
but to the topic itself.
it's tragic and hypocritical of the VA "doctors" to treat people this way. The article says the doctors were "reprimanded". WTH? is that it? These docs are flushing men out of service for bogus reasons, misdiagnosing and allowing suciicidal thoughts to idle but they get to keep their jobs?

and then there's an "internal" investigation.
It's the same pattern with bad police or bad IRS, or bad SCC, etc..
"just a few bad apples" (that are allowed to stay) nothing systematic to see here.... move along.

well I'm glad the guy had the tapes. If he had just told people they probably would have just called him crazy.
A few bad apples? They all have prescriptive authority plus rank in most cases. If not fighting in a mideast war is bad enough, the psych docs and others keep a significant percentage of our soldiers medicated while deployed to return home on a poly pharm cocktail. Can we ask how this supposed advancement in psychiatry and psychopharmacology has left us with a huge increase in the suicides of soldiers? Shouldn't there be a reduction? Sgt. James and others have a valid gripe but it should be recognized that psych docs are not merely "inadequate" but dangerous. They and their prescription pads do much harm.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

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Originally Posted by zoriolus View Post
A few bad apples? They all have prescriptive authority plus rank in most cases. If not fighting in a mideast war is bad enough, the psych docs and others keep a significant percentage of our soldiers medicated while deployed to return home on a poly pharm cocktail. Can we ask how this supposed advancement in psychiatry and psychopharmacology has left us with a huge increase in the suicides of soldiers? Shouldn't there be a reduction? Sgt. James and others have a valid gripe but it should be recognized that psych docs are not merely "inadequate" but dangerous. They and their prescription pads do much harm.
I agree,
the "bad apple" defense is a joke.
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
There is no double-standard with the PP example.
You're essentially trying to use a situation where people modified the tapes deceptively and using that to deride all "undercover" investigation. Ignoring MULTIPLE things that have been exposed about the tapes / situation that the right habitually refuses to address.
You're using a situation where the PP tape supposed "claims" have never been independently documented. If they had enough profit off this to bring about buying fancy cars, it would be in their books!
How about where the PP tape takers themselves plead the fifth when they were going to be asked questions about their tapes in a court of law.

If ANYBODY could come up with independent verification that fetal parts were being sold for profit, that would be something.
When NOBODY can come up with ANY independent verification that fetal parts are being sold for profit (after several state investigations and a federal congressional), that is ALSO SOMETHING.
sure there's a double standard, you've added to it again with this statement.

hey just Look
- have you or those on left vetted ANYTHING the "supposed" soldier said?

-have they investigated and exposed his background, political leaning, college friends?

-have they checked with forensic media companies for the ABSOLUTE veracity of the tapes,

-have they checked for editing that puts the Army docs in a even the SLIGHTEST better or worse light and made a case against the solders guilt and the Amries innocents simply based on that,

-have they looked to see if the soldier is even losslly connected to any political group that are "OUT TO GET" the military,

-have that got any other INDEPENDENTLY verified evidence of other Doctors shabby Pysch work and drumming out of Service,

-Have they checked to see what laws may have been broken by the soldier in obtaining the tapes and called for the soldiers investigation and arrest,

-have they question whether investigative reporting like this is unethical and prosecutable, or if he committed "fraud" in obtaining the interviews,

-have they assumed that those that are outraged but not surprised and want further investigation of the Army are crazy, on mission, gullible etc..

-have they assumed the DoD innocent until proven guilty,

-have they said "wait and see" for another investigation before we can prove army guilt?

-have they declared that the investigation that the DoD has already done PROVES FINALLY and definitively that the doctors and system are A-OK and that the soldier is just a LIAR with edited tapes out to get the military

-Have they given the psych doctors and DoD under investigation the full benny of the doubt and free reign to put out their side of the story as completely innocent until proven guilty by a standard of evidence that is not attainable except by full confessions, since hours of video taped conversation, comments and docs from the buyers, testimony of former PP workers, and even info contained in letters from PP itself is not enough.

so yes the double standard here is clear to anyone objectively looking at it.
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The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents."

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Old 10-30-2015, 07:53 PM
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Post Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
sure there's a double standard, you've added to it again with this statement.

hey just Look
- have you or those on left vetted ANYTHING the "supposed" soldier said?
-have they investigated and exposed his background, political leaning, college friends?
-have they checked with forensic media companies for the ABSOLUTE veracity of the tapes,
-have they checked for editing that puts the Army docs in a even the SLIGHTEST better or worse light and made a case against the solders guilt and the Amries innocents simply based on that,
-have they looked to see if the soldier is even losslly connected to any political group that are "OUT TO GET" the military,
-have that got any other INDEPENDENTLY verified evidence of other Doctors shabby Pysch work and drumming out of Service,
-Have they checked to see what laws may have been broken by the soldier in obtaining the tapes and called for the soldiers investigation and arrest,
-have they question whether investigative reporting like this is unethical and prosecutable, or if he committed "fraud" in obtaining the interviews,
-have they assumed that those that are outraged but not surprised and want further investigation of the Army are crazy, on mission, gullible etc..
-have they assumed the DoD innocent until proven guilty,
-have they said "wait and see" for another investigation before we can prove army guilt?
-have they declared that the investigation that the DoD has already done PROVES FINALLY and definitively that the doctors and system are A-OK and that the soldier is just a LIAR with edited tapes out to get the military
-Have they given the psych doctors and DoD under investigation the full benny of the doubt and free reign to put out their side of the story as completely innocent until proven guilty by a standard of evidence that is not attainable except by full confessions, since hours of video taped conversation, comments and docs from the buyers, testimony of former PP workers, and even info contained in letters from PP itself is not enough.
so yes the double standard here is clear to anyone objectively looking at it.
What a long-winded strawman argument.
If you can show me arguing ANY of that here regarding PP, you let me know.
Until then, you're reply is pure b.s. Accusing me of having a double standard cause I'm not adhering these guys to a standard I didn't adhere for the others...

I've already explained the difference.
Without surprise, nobody here is willing to honestly address it.
We have a long-standing history of this sort of problem with veteran treatment. Ergo, when yet another source proclaims "the desert is dry" you'll have to excuse me while I believe them.

Also, when you've got SEVERAL investigations all coming up with NO EVIDENCE to the claims described here, THEN you'll have another real comparison note.

But you go ahead and keep up with this b.s. where you ignore what my real arguments are.
It plays well with some people, even though it's intellectually dishonest.
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

The VA denying treatment has been a major scandal that Obama has been ineffectual at solving. Hillary says it is overblown. But hey, there have been other VA scandals so what can they do? They are not responsible.
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Old 10-31-2015, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
What a long-winded strawman argument.
If you can show me arguing ANY of that here regarding PP, you let me know.
Until then, you're reply is pure b.s. Accusing me of having a double standard cause I'm not adhering these guys to a standard I didn't adhere for the others...

I've already explained the difference.
Without surprise, nobody here is willing to honestly address it.
We have a long-standing history of this sort of problem with veteran treatment. Ergo, when yet another source proclaims "the desert is dry" you'll have to excuse me while I believe them.

Also, when you've got SEVERAL investigations all coming up with NO EVIDENCE to the claims described here, THEN you'll have another real comparison note.

But you go ahead and keep up with this b.s. where you ignore what my real arguments are.
It plays well with some people, even though it's intellectually dishonest.
Your patented, I didn't put it in a comment so it must not exist, nonsense. In fact PP hired a very high powered PR firm complete with Obama's former communications director, Anita Dunn, to spin the story. The recordings were inspected by PP'S hired video analysis firm. PP filed a Federal lawsuit to block release of some of the recordings. Every effort has been made to discredit the messenger even suggesting the recordings violated the law. But of course in your own personal echo chamber you don't see any of this so it doesn't exist. Just scream liar loud enough so the facts don't creep in.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Missed Treatment: Soldiers With Mental Health Issues Dismissed For 'Misconduct'

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Wow...
Hours of secret recordings from two Leftwing public radio outlets and NOT ONE MENTION of editing or quotes take out of context...

I guess if it doesn't hurt a Liberal purpose...
(Of course I believe it...Just showing the hypocrisy...Run this very same story with James O'Keefe recording it and the Left would go berserk)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I have to say this a valid point.
the reactions to the PPhood tapes were to assume the worst from beginning to end. and some even rode the horse of questioned the ethics and legality of the practice of undercover tapes in general.

It may be a bit "off topic" but it's appropriate to note that there is a very clear double standard here. And it wouldn't hurt anyone to acknowledge it. The right denies the Downing St memo, and Wiki leak or Anonymous gov't docs that don't line up with Republican views of the world. Both sides are often irrationally "skeptical" of info that hurts their world views.

......
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
What a long-winded strawman argument.
If you can show me arguing ANY of that here regarding PP, you let me know.
Until then, you're reply is pure b.s. Accusing me of having a double standard cause I'm not adhering these guys to a standard I didn't adhere for the others.....

It's not all always about you found unless you completely represent all of the lefts actions and words that Cnredd and i mentioned.

what you did do is defend "the left" as not being hypocritical.
"There is no double-standard with the PP example." is what you said.

Sorry you don't get to back out now and try to narrow it your specific statements on each.

the hypocrisy of the left is OBVIOUS here.
You can deny that your statements are, if that makes you feel better.
But there's no doubt that the lefts examined the the PP tapes FAR more critically than the veterans tapes here.

But you looked at both sets of tapes with the exact same scrutiny ...cough...
OK... sure.
if you say so.
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The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents."

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"Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God."
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