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History, Geography, & Military Discuss Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark. at the Political Forums; Because we are one country again and many in the south would like to honor their soldiers regardless of who ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

Because we are one country again and many in the south would like to honor their soldiers regardless of who won, we don't spell it out.
But in any other war this guy would have been branded a traitor to THIS country like Benedict Arnold (hope that doesn't open up a whole new can o peas in OC's alternative history forum ), and as such we would not even wonder where or if he was buried.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

The south holds 1/3 of our population and in some areas they decide whats right or wrong with history.

Just thought I would toss that on the table.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I balk at the loudly and often droolingly slurred ephemism that drops still from the lips of people who probably are descended from Yankees as they cherish the golden hey days of king cotton

That's why there was an underground railroad to the north. you, sir are delusional.
Guess you can't read "blue" so I broke it up for ya.
The Underground Railroad was illegal in the North too. Didn't you know. Again, yet again, slavery was legal and practiced in the North until late in the war.

They did not, contrary to myth, "clean their own house" first. Nope.

And after the war? They simply re-branded slavery as various employment practices that effectively enslaved immigrants, especially Irish and Chinese immigrants, as well as freed black Americans.

Reality is so toxic to pleasant self deception, isn't it?
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
It doesn't make much difference who fired the first shot if we don't also examine why they fired it.

The Union troops at Fort Sumpter represented a foreign army on North Carolinia's soil. Lincolns decision to re provision it was clearly a provocative act designed to produce the results he wanted, and to "justify" fratricidal war.
Just for historical record, Fort Sumpter is in South Carolina.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:25 AM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

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Originally Posted by MrLiberty View Post
Just for historical record, Fort Sumpter is in South Carolina.
Well fine!

I always get that mixed up.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
Well fine!

I always get that mixed up.
Do like I do and mostly use the term "the Carolinas" and you can't go wrong.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

Who won the US Civil War?

Who won the US Civil War


northern states or probably better known as union army, won the civil war.


Who won the American civil war in 1861 and why?



The American Civil War was won in 1865, not 1861- that is when it was started. The North won the war, because they had more industrial capabilities and war supplies, and the South was mainly agricultural.
Quote:
The eventual winners of the American Civil War were the Northern states, but this was a victory that came at the cost of many lives. It was inevitable that the Northern states were to win, because they had rapidly embraced industrialization and had many advanced weapons and machinery in their possession in order to score an emphatic victory.
Read more at Buzzle: Who Won the Civil War...
...Another main reason, why they won was their purpose of fighting, which humanitarian in nature. They were fighting for the abolition of slavery during the war and for the emancipation of the slaves. This gave them a sense of feeling that they were fighting for the right cause. There are many causes for wars, and human freedom is something that cannot be brushed aside as an irrelevant reason. Morally, they were on the right side.

The strategy of the North was set from the very beginning of the war, and sticking to it made it impossible for them to win. The strategy was known as the 'Anaconda Plan', and it primarily focused on driving towards the capital of the Confederacy, Richmond, while simultaneously controlling the Mississippi river. The attacks from the Southern states were disorganized and their strategy was alterable...
[why the south lost] ...The Southern states were primarily fighting for individual Governments for each state, and this ultimately led to their downfall. There was no unity within the camp and the very thing that they went to war for was the main reason of their loss. There was a constant battle for supremacy within the states of the Confederacy, and this led to a lack of unison and a strong presence of disorganization.

Read more at Buzzle: Who Won the Civil War

Q_ Who ran in the election of 1860?

A_ The election of 1860 was one of the most unusual in American history. In a four-way race brought on by a split in the Democratic Party, Abraham Lincoln's name did not even appear on the ballot in most Southern states. In the electoral college, Lincoln solidly carried the free states of the Northeast and Northwest. Breckenridge won the slaveholding states, with the exception of Tennessee, Virginia and Kentucky in the Upper South, which went to Bell. Douglas, though he made a solid showing in the popular vote, only took electoral votes from Missouri and New Jersey.***Abraham Lincoln of Illinois, Republican Party: 39.8%
Stephen A. Douglas of Illinois, Northern Democratic Party: 29.5%
John C. Breckenridge of Kentucky, Southern Democratic Party: 18.1%
John Bell of Tennessee, Constitutional Union Party: 12.6%


Secession_
The Deep South seceded first. Only after the bombardment of Fort Sumter and Lincoln's subsequent call for 75,000 volunteers did the states of the Upper South secede from the Union, rather than participate in the invasion of their fellow slave states. Kentucky, Missouri, and Maryland - though they were slaveholding states in 1860 and contributed men to the Confederate cause - never seceded.

Q. Was secession legal?Charleston Mercury

A. No. This was a complex question at the time, with able legal minds to be found arguing both sides, but the United States Supreme Court, in Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868), determined after the war that secession had been illegal. Chief Justice Salmon Chase wrote in his majority opinion that, "The ordinance of secession...and all the acts of legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law."
>>>
>>>
Q. What caused the Civil War?

A. While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries."
Civil War Facts

Lieutenant Henry S. Farley of the Confederate Army, commanding a battery of two mortars on James Island, fired the first shot of the civil war on Friday, April 12, 1861 at 4:30 A.M.

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Old 10-19-2012, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

I always think it strange that the confederate flag is hated by some groups because it represents an area of the country that had slaves, however, some people could make the same claim about the Union Flag since because of the Dred Scott decision. Also as was mentioned, a lot of slaves had to escape to Canada and other countries because they could be sent back under the Union flag. Civil Wars over, maybe forget about it but nothing wrong with honoring the brave, even if they fought on the "wrong side".
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark. - heraldstandard.com: United States Ap:
October 15, 2012
As usual when discussing most things about the War of Northern Aggression, uninformed people think of it in historically inaccurate and even mythical ways.
In all probability he was not fighting "to defend unjust institutions." He would have been fighting in an illegal and immoral war of conquest and tyranny on the side of the Defenders for his country, Arkansas, for the Confederacy to which it belonged, for his family and friends.
The Union troops who hanged him were fighting for spoils, to subjugate the States which had freely left the Union, as the Union had freely left the British Empire less than a century earlier, and because they didn't know any better. I suppose some were even foolish enough to believe that Slavery had been abolished in the North, that they were fighting to abolish it in the South, or that the Northern leaders by and large did not see Blacks as inherently inferior creatures.
At any rate, it is certainly good to see actual history and heroism honored.
I noticed What often happens in these discussion is the Confederate defenders make Straw Men claiming others think the North was pure and righteous, and Lincoln was Moses and incorruptible.

Nearly EVERY time it comes up those are put up and supposedly knocked down.
OftenCold IMO if you want to defend the Confederacy you should just post what you think, and not what you suppose others think about the north and the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlurp View Post
Only if you and others read several of the links I posted.
My point is once one state left the union Ft. Sumpter was fired on. So how do you gage who started a war? I go by who fired the first shots.
That's one way, not enough for some though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLiberty View Post
Who forced the hand of Southerns?
I'll read the link.
see


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
You mean by resupplying a coastal fort in South Carolinian's territorial waters the only purpose of which would be to fire barrages on the mainland?
Lincoln goaded, and stupidly, the South fired on Fort Sumpter, killing no one. The North responded with unconscionable, fratricidal murder.
To assuage their tender consciences afterward, the Union created the Myth of Lincoln as the anti-slavery crusader, and the WoNA as a a war to liberate the slaves. Nonsense.
It was a war to prevent Federal power from being diminished.
The Underground Railroad was illegal in the North too. Didn't you know. Again, yet again, slavery was legal and practiced in the North until late in the war.
They did not, contrary to myth, "clean their own house" first. Nope.
Who Said this?!
And after the war? They simply re-branded slavery as various employment practices that effectively enslaved immigrants, especially Irish and Chinese immigrants, as well as freed black Americans.
Sooo Slavery is the SAME as employment? really OC?
Reality is so toxic to pleasant self deception, isn't it?
Reality is Toxic and you don't want to shallow it.
Your argument is based on the idea that the North was Bad, AS BAD as the South therefore it's OK to Honor the South.

Everyone beats their wife so I should be proud even though my wife divorced me, it wasn't because I BEAT her. It was really over property and other stuff. Most of my neighbors hadn't stop beating their wives until after I REFUSED TO STOP too. Some even sent mine back home. Most even agreed she was a generally stupid fat and ugly to. They had no right to tell me what to do in my house. There house was just as bad.
So I can be PROUD of what i did in my house.

If that's how you want to defend the South it's your call. But that sounds pretty pitiful and ugly to me OC.

Concerning the cause of the war,
the fact is the SOUTH thought that Lincoln was Anti-Slavery. the South did. Not supposed Northern Myth Makers. the South Seceded over Slavery THEY thought/knew that a Lincoln Presidency meant that slavery was in jeopardy. So they bailed. Lincoln WAS NOT a full on abolitionist, however he was close enough for southern taste.

the plain fact is the North was not willing to compromise to the South's satisfaction on the issue of slavery. So they bailed. Both the North and South KNEW that a war would be the probable result.
All the other excuses and caveats notwithstanding No slavery no war. period paragraph end of story.
No slavery No war. that's it.

If slavery had NOT been an issue would the south have seceded. NO.
What was the ONLY significant items in the Confederate Constitution that differed from the U.S. Constitution. "negro slavery".
What was the reason Jefferson Davis gave for secession in his departure address from the U.S. Congress. paraphrased "we do like the idea that some folks think that 'all men are created equal' means ALL men." and "you want us to give up our 'honored' southern rights and tradition of slavery."

Confederate Constitution
Quote:
"....(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due."


(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States....
OC, the North was far from perfect but instead of the above the North was moving quickly AWAY from slavery.

Jefferson Davis
Quote:
"...it has been a belief that we are to be deprived in the Union of the rights which our fathers bequeathed to us -- which has brought Mississippi to her present decision. She has heard proclaimed the theory that all men are created free and equal,and this made the basis of an attack upon her social institutions; and the sacred Declaration of Independence has been invoked to maintain the position of the equality of the races. ..."
Jefferson Davis' Farewell Address to Senate
Everyone knew from 1776 on that the slave issue could split the country and mean war.

Though not Overtly claimed to be so.
Slavery was THE major cause and change of the war.
Northern warts and all.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 10-19-2012 at 09:35 AM..
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Long after death, Confederate spy honored in Ark.

In the end it seem we have to agree to dis-agree! Much has been posted with facts, plenty has been posted from opinions of different natures.

Yet we have still not come to an agreeable conclusion on the Civil War, So the south has another hero. Which is fine with me.

While we are as a country still trying to deal with the results which started this War. Plus the fact of our immigration of Latinos, Mexicans and our other cultures which has tensions between each other.

That is just IMHO cause I don't want to start a new dis-agreement.
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