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History, Geography, & Military Discuss Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal? at the Political Forums; 19 October 2011 Last updated at 13:14 ET Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal? Comments (431) By Matt Danzico ...

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Old 10-20-2011, 11:35 AM
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Default Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

19 October 2011 Last updated at 13:14 ET


Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?


Comments (431) By Matt Danzico and Kate Dailey


On Tuesday night, while Republican candidates in Nevada were debating such American issues as nuclear waste disposal and the immigration status of Mitt Romney's gardener, American and British lawyers in Philadelphia were taking on a far more fundamental topic.

Namely, just what did Thomas Jefferson think he was doing?

Some background: during the hot and sweltering summer of 1776, members of the second Continental Congress travelled to Philadelphia to discuss their frustration with royal rule.

By 4 July, America's founding fathers approved a simple document penned by Jefferson that enumerated their grievances and announced themselves a sovereign nation.

Continue reading the main story “Start QuoteWhen a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security”
End Quote The Declaration of Independence
Called the Declaration of Independence, it was a blow for freedom, a call to war, and the founding of a new empire.

It was also totally illegitimate and illegal.

At least, that was what lawyers from the UK argued during a debate at Philadelphia's Ben Franklin Hall.

American experiment

The event, presented by the Temple American Inn of Court in conjunction with Gray's Inn, London, pitted British barristers against American lawyers to determine whether or not the American colonists had legal grounds to declare secession.

For American lawyers, the answer is simple: "The English had used their own Declaration of Rights to depose James II and these acts were deemed completely lawful and justified," they say in their summary.

To the British, however, secession isn't the legal or proper tool by which to settle internal disputes. "What if Texas decided today it wanted to secede from the Union? Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right," they argue in their brief.

A vote at the end of the debate reaffirmed the legality of Jefferson and company's insurrection, and the American experiment survived to see another day.

It was an unsurprising result, considering the venue - just a few blocks away from where the Declaration was drafted. But did they get it right? Below are some more of the arguments from both sides.

The American case for the Declaration
Did the Founding Fathers have any respect for the law?
The Declaration is unquestionably "legal". Under basic principles of "Natural Law", government can only be by the consent of the people and there comes a point when allegiance is no longer required in face of tyranny.

The legality of the Declaration and its validity is proven by subsequent independence movements which have been enforced by world opinion as right and just, based on the fundamental principles of equality and self-determination now reflected in the UN Charter.

The British case against it
The Declaration emerged from the second Continental Congress
The Declaration of Independence was not only illegal, but actually treasonable. There is no legal principle then or now to allow a group of citizens to establish their own laws because they want to. What if Texas decided today it wanted to secede from the Union?

Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right. The Declaration of Independence itself, in the absence of any recognised legal basis, had to appeal to "natural law", an undefined concept, and to "self-evident truths", that is to say truths for which no evidence could be provided.

The grievances listed in the Declaration were too trivial to justify secession. The main one - no taxation without representation - was no more than a wish on the part of the colonists, to avoid paying for the expense of protecting them against the French during seven years of arduous war and conflict.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

Lincoln was wrong and so are the British Lawyers
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

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Originally Posted by DammitBoy! View Post
Lincoln was wrong and so are the British Lawyers
They should call you
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

Doesn't matter if it was legal or not. They fought for their freedom, and won. That's all that matters.

Rights are earned or given. They earned their right to secede from Britain.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?


Of course it was illegal. Thus they had to have a Revolution.

Frakking liberals!
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

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Of course it was illegal. Thus they had to have a Revolution.

Frakking liberals!
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

Personally, I think the Brit's are just jealous.........
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

And this from the same bunch who called William Wallace, a Scotsman with no sworn allegiance to England, a traitor, dragged him from Scottish soil to the streets of London, and executed him by drawing and quartering.

Yeah, I'll believe what they say on this.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
Doesn't matter if it was legal or not. They fought for their freedom, and won. That's all that matters.

Rights are earned or given. They earned their right to secede from Britain.
I think if you really dug into it, every revolution was probably illegal.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Is the US Declaration of Independence illegal?

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Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right.
Actually, I don't believe he was.

Although I am very far from some diehard Confederate sympathizer--no matter how many issues ultimately led up to the Civil War, and no matter their order of importance in precipitating the conflict, the horrid institution of slavery simply cannot be brushed aside--the fact remains that secession, in my opinion, should never have been considered illegal. In fact, very few states would have ever entered into a compact, I believe, had they been under the impression that they could never dissolve it, should they choose to do so.

In recent times, Alaska and Texas have made a few rumblings about possibly leaving the union. I deeply hope that they do not. To do so would make our country a somewhat bluer shade of maroon, it seems to me.

Still, there is sometimes a vast difference between what ought to be done and what may be done...
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