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History, Geography, & Military Discuss US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Spencer Collins And I've said the same...Americans have no stomach for protracted warfare! Either one supports the ...

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Old 12-01-2009, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Spencer Collins View Post
And I've said the same...Americans have no stomach for protracted warfare! Either one supports the WoT or they don't and they see terrorism only as a crime that needs to be dealt with. We are at war...we must not let others decide our destiny for us.Far too many are willing to let the terrorists win by default.We've got to want to succeed and understand that the threat of terrorism is not going away,it will only increase if we lose our resolve.

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American's don't have the stomach for protracted warfare. I think this has been quite obvious since Vietnam. If we are to get into a military situation, we've got to do everything we can to win and win clearly and quickly. This is the problem we have, and none of our leaders have managed to figure this out.
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Spencer Collins View Post
And I've said the same...Americans have no stomach for protracted warfare!
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That's a false assertion. Its a question of whether or not our authentic national interest is involved in determining how long the American people will support a war. If the people do not support a war or only one side supports it, it is a sure sign that our national interest is not really involved and we should not be fighting it at all. I can give many examples.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Spencer Collins View Post
And I've said the same...Americans have no stomach for protracted warfare! Either one supports the WoT or they don't and they see terrorism only as a crime that needs to be dealt with. We are at war...we must not let others decide our destiny for us.Far too many are willing to let the terrorists win by default.We've got to want to succeed and understand that the threat of terrorism is not going away,it will only increase if we lose our resolve.

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We are not there because of terrorism.

We are there to position our forces against the only real threat to our empire.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO).

That's what this is all about.

We are getting ready for war against the Russian/Chinese alliance.

When you look at things from that perspective, everything makes sense. China has the only economy that can challenge ours and Russia has the only military that can challenge ours. Even though the Soviet Union folded, they kept their military intact. Afghanistan gives us a strategic location to run sorties in both countries.

Imperalism never shares its crown.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Sulayman View Post
That's a false assertion. Its a question of whether or not our authentic national interest is involved in determining how long the American people will support a war. If the people do not support a war or only one side supports it, it is a sure sign that our national interest is not really involved and we should not be fighting it at all. I can give many examples.
Wrong..."who" decides the authenticity?...the people do through their "representatives". It's the same old dilemma...the people supported the war but they don't have a stomach for "protracted" warfare. In other words...many were for the war before they were against it. The WoT will never end but many may lose their resolve and in doing so they let others shape their destiny....so be it. I'm sure the people will end the war through the ballot box,that's usually the way it is done in a representative republic.

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Old 12-02-2009, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Spencer Collins View Post
Wrong..."who" decides the authenticity?...the people do through their "representatives". It's the same old dilemma...the people supported the war but they don't have a stomach for "protracted" warfare. In other words...many were for the war before they were against it. The WoT will never end but many may lose their resolve and in doing so they let others shape their destiny....so be it. I'm sure the people will end the war through the ballot box,that's usually the way it is done in a representative republic.

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I've been against these wars from the very beginning. And I will vote against any pro-war candidate. Even if that means I have to vote republican.

I sure hope it would be Ron Paul.
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Spencer Collins View Post
Wrong..."who" decides the authenticity?...the people do through their "representatives". It's the same old dilemma...the people supported the war but they don't have a stomach for "protracted" warfare.
If our national interest were involved the level of support for the war would not have declined significantly from what it was at the beginning. Obviously our national interest is not involved. Who decides? Not congress; the people themselves decide that and their decision is demonstrated by their level of support. When our authentic national interest is really involved we have not wavered. Its the same in every established nation I can think of.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
American's don't have the stomach for protracted warfare. I think this has been quite obvious since Vietnam. If we are to get into a military situation, we've got to do everything we can to win and win clearly and quickly. This is the problem we have, and none of our leaders have managed to figure this out.
The problem is that most of the situations we're facing are not won quickly and clearly. They are protracted events that require multiple changes in tactics as the situations change and we learn what is really happening, instead of what we assume is happening (making assumptions is the only starting point possible). A quick, clear win is not possible in today's world. Victory requires long term intervention because the situations are not just political, but cultural and changing cultural issues takes time. Take the Anbar Awakening. This took a cultural change of getting long time rivals to work together against someone that they thought was on thier side (AQI). It took time to gain their trust and for them to realize that their in-fighting was creating the very problems that were keeping them down. Afgh. is no different. Before any victory can be had, there needs to be a cultural change in the hill people that allows them to understand that protecting someone because your culture demands it is allowing the people who are persecuting you to thrive. To win in Afgh. will require gaining the trust of the mountain people who are protecting AQ/Taliban and this take time, effort, money, resources and RESOLVE.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

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Originally Posted by Sulayman View Post
If our national interest were involved the level of support for the war would not have declined significantly from what it was at the beginning. Obviously our national interest is not involved. Who decides? Not congress; the people themselves decide that and their decision is demonstrated by their level of support. When our authentic national interest is really involved we have not wavered. Its the same in every established nation I can think of.
As I have said...the people decide and how do they decide?...through the ballot box! We do not have a perfect or "direct" democracy...we have "representatives". Please show me where we have ended a war by a referendum/direct vote of the people.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: US missed chance to chase down Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora

What is really disturbing to me was a report on one of the news networks that said our brave allies the French and Italians never leave their bases and that the Germans only patrol during the day and return to base at night thus leaving vast areas open for the taliban and al queda to wonder about and do whatever at night.

While the Brits, Dutch, and Americans are doing most of the heavy lifting we are for the most part getting no support from our NATO allies.
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