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Health, Wellness, Sex and Body Discuss Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical death at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by Bat Actually, I didn't come back with an "anything but god" response. Maybe you missed this part ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat View Post
Actually, I didn't come back with an "anything but god" response. Maybe you missed this part of my response,
I didn't miss it.
but that didn't really reply to the question.
What you think about what others believe was not the question.

What YOU believe are possibly options If you were an eye witness to the the death an resurrection of Jesus was the question.
and your reply to that was.
...I wasn't there and neither were you. A book tells us Jesus was stabbed in the heart, maybe he wasn't. You assume that he was. I have a friend that was actually stabbed in the heart, with a knife and assumed dead when arriving at the hospital. He is alive today. He's just a friend, not the son of a deity.
I've seen things in my life that are un-explainable. That doesn't mean some god exists. It could just be our(my) lack of knowledge....
seems your ready to believe
anything but God.

your thoughts about what others believe and do are fine but not the question i was asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat View Post
The docs about Jesus are not original.
They've been retold, interpreted over and over by what ever the current predominant culture was in the church over the years, that it really is hard to take them at face value.
there are no original Docs from Plato or Socrates either.
do you doubt them?
here's something to consider
Quote:
...Socrates or Plato. It’s a massive double standard, . . . Dr. Richard M. Fales analyzes the massive differences in the comparative evidence:

Aristotle’s Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and 322 B.C. The earliest copy of this work dates A.D. 1100, and there are only forty-nine extant manuscripts. The gap between the original writing and the earliest copy is 1,400 years. There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato’s Tetralogies, written 427–347 B.C. The earliest copy is A.D. 900—a gap of over 1,200 years. What about the New Testament? Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30. The New Testament was written between A.D. 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quarter of the first century , and the second oldest A.D. 125. This gives us a narrow gap of thirty-five to forty years from the originals written by the apostles. From the early centuries, we have some 5,300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures. So the bottom line is, there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies.

With the great body of manuscript evidence, it can be proved, beyond a doubt, that the New Testament says exactly the same things today as it originally did nearly 2,000 years ago. Corroborating Writings. Critics also charge that there are no ancient writings about Jesus outside the New Testament. This is another ridiculous claim. Writings confirming His birth, ministry, death, and resurrection include Flavius Josephus (A.D. 93), the Babylonian Talmud (A.D. 70–200), Pliny the Younger’s letter to the Emperor Trajan (approx. A.D. 100), the Annals of Tacitus (A.D. 115–117), Mara Bar Serapion (sometime after A.D. 73), and Suetonius’ Life of Claudius and Life of Nero (A.D. 120).
Not to mention other secular historical writings and artifacts that confirm the validity of the history written in the Bible.

So yes if you really want to look carefully you can in fact take the new testament "at face value". Armchair skeptics tend to want to believe the generic and pop-culture fiction Da Vinci Code narrative of "Church re-translations" and modern "interpretations" .
Frankly the modern cultural re-interpetations are by those that want Jesus to to be watered down, and remove the miracles, and say Jesus would promoted, "love" of all kinds and homosexual marriage, and that He didn't/doesn't care about other sin, or that he rose in "spirit", or that Jesus taught that there are MANY ways to God. Or that he was Married etc etc.. Those are the corruptions ... among others... But the New testament Text, which we can TODAY look at the 2nd century text for reference for authenticity, does not carry those ideas.

Quote:
The Greeks and Romans also had many written documents about gods and people. Muhammad is also well documented.
Concerning the Greeks, Romans and Mohammad.
Like Plato and Socrates reference issues.
The account of Jesus's act and works are on another level. If you're sincerely interested in a comparison I can point you in that direction. If you're serious.

But here's what the apostle Peter says about his testimony
"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty." 2 Peter 1:16
Here's the apostle Paul's words.
1 Corinthians 15 ... and if the Messiah has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God because we testified on God’s behalf that he raised the Messiah—whom he did not raise if in fact it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah[d] has not been raised.... 1 Corinthians 15
Quote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all called Abrahamic religions because they all accept the tradition of a god, Yahweh, that revealed himself to the prophet Abraham.
Yes, that's true, they are called the Abrahamic religions... Ok... and the Mormons, Jehovah's Wittnesess, Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church and Jim Jones also claim roots in Abraham.
In each case, one would need to look at history, their history and the historical Docs to get any idea which ... if any... claims are worthy of serious consideration.
one could simply assume the worst of them all. But those that'd do that can't honestly claim that they have good reasons to believe that all or any are false.
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Hope is the dream of the waking man.
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 09-12-2018 at 11:21 PM..
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat


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Job 14:6-8
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

The second video reminds me of this anagram exchange:

Pilate: Quid est veritas?

Jesus: Est vir qui adest.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I didn't miss it.
but that didn't really reply to the question.
What you think about what others believe was not the question.

What YOU believe are possibly options If you were an eye witness to the the death an resurrection of Jesus was the question.
and your reply to that was.
...I wasn't there and neither were you. A book tells us Jesus was stabbed in the heart, maybe he wasn't. You assume that he was. I have a friend that was actually stabbed in the heart, with a knife and assumed dead when arriving at the hospital. He is alive today. He's just a friend, not the son of a deity.
I've seen things in my life that are un-explainable. That doesn't mean some god exists. It could just be our(my) lack of knowledge....
seems your ready to believe
anything but God.

your thoughts about what others believe and do are fine but not the question i was asking.


there are no original Docs from Plato or Socrates either.
do you doubt them?
here's something to consider
Not to mention other secular historical writings and artifacts that confirm the validity of the history written in the Bible.

So yes if you really want to look carefully you can in fact take the new testament "at face value". Armchair skeptics tend to want to believe the generic and pop-culture fiction Da Vinci Code narrative of "Church re-translations" and modern "interpretations" .
Frankly the modern cultural re-interpetations are by those that want Jesus to to be watered down, and remove the miracles, and say Jesus would promoted, "love" of all kinds and homosexual marriage, and that He didn't/doesn't care about other sin, or that he rose in "spirit", or that Jesus taught that there are MANY ways to God. Or that he was Married etc etc.. Those are the corruptions ... among others... But the New testament Text, which we can TODAY look at the 2nd century text for reference for authenticity, does not carry those ideas.


Concerning the Greeks, Romans and Mohammad.
Like Plato and Socrates reference issues.
The account of Jesus's act and works are on another level. If you're sincerely interested in a comparison I can point you in that direction. If you're serious.

But here's what the apostle Peter says about his testimony
"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty." 2 Peter 1:16
Here's the apostle Paul's words.
1 Corinthians 15 ... and if the Messiah has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God because we testified on God’s behalf that he raised the Messiah—whom he did not raise if in fact it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah[d] has not been raised.... 1 Corinthians 15
Yes, that's true, they are called the Abrahamic religions... Ok... and the Mormons, Jehovah's Wittnesess, Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church and Jim Jones also claim roots in Abraham.
In each case, one would need to look at history, their history and the historical Docs to get any idea which ... if any... claims are worthy of serious consideration.
one could simply assume the worst of them all. But those that'd do that can't honestly claim that they have good reasons to believe that all or any are false.
Mr Wonder,
I am an atheist and nothing you say can alter that. Not any more than anything I say will alter your beliefs. I have no desire to change you when it comes to this matter.
It is.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat View Post
Mr Wonder,
I am an atheist and nothing you say can alter that. Not any more than anything I say will alter your beliefs. I have no desire to change you when it comes to this matter.
It is.
I used to be an agnostic.
More or less open to all sides of the question of the existence of God. and talked to listened to atheist and Christians and those of various beliefs.
Things said to me in conversations (information I was exposed to) as well as my experience. lead me to become a Christian.

the idea that we all are FIXED in our beliefs and nothing can change us is not necessarily so.
those who have been Christians have sadly become atheist... after talking.
and many atheist have become Christians after getting/hearing more info about the history, science or simply the life and work of Jesus Christ.

I'd like to hope that you'd be one. But even if you do not. still seems to me that ... as an atheist... you should at least be working with the accurate information.

and comments like, the Bible is just copies of copies that have been changed over the centuries and by modern interpretations is simply false on the level that you present it.

And if that's one of the things that you base your atheism on then it's vaporous.

Same with the other issues i've replied too.
whether you or anyone becomes a Christian or not is one thing. But whether or not you're presenting historical factual information about Christianity, or making logical arguments is something that can be more objectively determined.
if we're open to find out the details that is.
Sad thing is many people don't really want to know.
Personally I finally realized that i was really one of those people. even tough i wasn't overtly hostile, but when presented with what struck me as very compelling info in God's favor I tended to wind down the conversation or research. Until i finally threw up my hands in surrender admitting 1st that God is in fact a reality like the Ocean the Sun and my family. I'm not saying that I havn't had Doubts but it's more like the doubts one might have about the Sun not shinning again during a monsoon and wondering if there really is a Sun at all. But that's me.
everyone has their on journey.


here's one
__________________
Hope is the dream of the waking man.
Aristotle

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 09-16-2018 at 06:01 AM..
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I used to be an agnostic.
More or less open to all sides of the question of the existence of God. and talked to listened to atheist and Christians and those of various beliefs.
Things said to me in conversations (information I was exposed to) as well as my experience. lead me to become a Christian.

the idea that we all are FIXED in our beliefs and nothing can change us is not necessarily so.
those who have been Christians have sadly become atheist... after talking.
and many atheist have become Christians after getting/hearing more info about the history, science or simply the life and work of Jesus Christ.

I'd like to hope that you'd be one. But even if you do not. still seems to me that ... as an atheist... you should at least be working with the accurate information.

and comments like, the Bible is just copies of copies that have been changed over the centuries and by modern interpretations is simply false on the level that you present it.

And if that's one of the things that you base your atheism on then it's vaporous.

Same with the other issues i've replied too.
whether you or anyone becomes a Christian or not is one thing. But whether or not you're presenting historical factual information about Christianity, or making logical arguments is something that can be more objectively determined.
if we're open to find out the details that is.
Sad thing is many people don't really want to know.
Personally I finally realized that i was really one of those people. even tough i wasn't overtly hostile, but when presented with what struck me as very compelling info in God's favor I tended to wind down the conversation or research. Until i finally threw up my hands in surrender admitting 1st that God is in fact a reality like the Ocean the Sun and my family. I'm not saying that I havn't had Doubts but it's more like the doubts one might have about the Sun not shinning again during a monsoon and wondering if there really is a Sun at all. But that's me.
everyone has their on journey.


here's one
Mr Wonder,
My mind is made up, as is yours. I'm not proselytizing, just informing.
Regards,
Bat
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

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Originally Posted by Bat View Post
Mr Wonder,
My mind is made up, as is yours. I'm not proselytizing, just informing.
Regards,
Bat
well frankly, I'm informing and proselytizing.

But i'm open to discussion of historical and scientific facts and the logical conclusions that can be drawn by looking at those facts.
My point with the previous comments was to say that that your information was less than accurate factually and historically speaking.
If you've made up your mind (based on faulty information) and don't not want to hear or discuss any more evidence , ok that's fine.
But please don't be shocked if you say things that are factually incorrect, that others , at the least, reply with more accurate information.

all the best
__________________
Hope is the dream of the waking man.
Aristotle

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2018, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
I have someone working for me like that.
Heck, I have voted for several; and they were the best choice available, among the selection, at the time.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:41 PM
Bat Bat is offline
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Default Re: Researchers say there's evidence that consciousness continues after clinical deat

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
well frankly, I'm informing and proselytizing.

But i'm open to discussion of historical and scientific facts and the logical conclusions that can be drawn by looking at those facts.
My point with the previous comments was to say that that your information was less than accurate factually and historically speaking.
If you've made up your mind (based on faulty information) and don't not want to hear or discuss any more evidence , ok that's fine.
But please don't be shocked if you say things that are factually incorrect, that others , at the least, reply with more accurate information.

all the best
PM me if you want to continue to discuss this.
At this point it has become more personal than a health and wellness or political discussion.
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