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Gun Control/2nd Amendment Discuss 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban at the General Forum; Originally Posted by ShivaTD The person has a "natural/inalienable right of self-defense against acts of aggression" but no person has ...

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Old 02-06-2016, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The person has a "natural/inalienable right of self-defense against acts of aggression" but no person has an inalienable right to possess any specific commodity.
Are you willing to extend this speculation to books or one's papers and effects or how about just a pen or given the takings clause, one's property in general -- or is it just guns you have carved this exception out for?

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The 2nd Amendment protects the statutory (not inalienable) right to possess "arms" for the purpose of self-defense
I'm already questioning in my mind if you understand the concept of "inalienable" but now I'll question out loud and ask, why do you think the right to arms is established by law?

That thought runs counter to foundational constitutional principles and 139 years and counting of boringly consistent SCOTUS explanations on the right to keep and bear arms.

Multiple majority opinions state that the right to arms is not granted by the 2nd Amendment thus it is not in any manner dependent upon the Constitution for its existence.

Explain how a right that exists without any dependence on the Constitution (and thus any law or regulation enacted / established / created under the Constitution) can be deemed "statutory"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
but the 2nd Amendment doesn't define what types of arms are protected. "Arms" can refer to anything from a stick to a nuclear weapon and Congress is delegated with limited statutory authority to determine what types of "Arms" are protected subject only to the interpretation of the word "Arms" by the US Supreme Court.
Well, you can rest your weary mind because SCOTUS has undertaken that defining and after 70 or so years we can call it well settled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
We see two fundamental problems here. First of all is that some people can't differentiate between what's an inalienable right and a statutory right and the 2nd Amendment addresses a statutory right.
Is there any US legal principle or doctrine or case law you can quote and cite that supports this or is it just your bald personal opinion, standing alone at the edge of the void?

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Next is that people misread the 2nd Amendment believing that it specifies "firearms" when it doesn't because it actually refers to "arms" that can be many objects used by the person.
Again, SCOTUS has spoken on this; the law is settled and the rules were just used to invalidate the Maryland assault weapons ban and are well explained in the case that is the topic of this thread.

The part on the 2nd Amendment, Section III, is not long and it is very readable for a lay person. It begins on page 15 and ends on page 32, I highly recommend you read it.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...an_Opinion.pdf


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Old 02-06-2016, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
We can apply a limited definition to what the word "Arms" referred to in the 2nd Amendment. For example the US Supreme Court could rule that "Arms" doesn't relate to any object that uses a chemical propellant to launch a projectile in which case "fireams" would not be protected by the 2nd Amendment. A crossbow that mechanically launches a projectile would be protected but not a firearm.

The 2nd Amendment doesn't establish a protection for "firearms" per se because it refers to "Arms" that's open to interpretation of what type of arms are protected.
Again, just so it sinks in . . .

SCOTUS has told us what types of arms are protected under the 2nd Amendment.

The arm must be of the type:


That constitutes the ordinary military equipment - is currently employed in civilized warfare and/or of a type that can be utilized advantageously in the common defense, and/or quite simply, of a type in common use by civilians at the time of the court's inspection.


If the arm meets any of those criteria then any power claimed by government to restrict its possession and use by civilians is repelled or invalidated (if already in force). (Heller only used the "in common use by civilians" rule to invalidate the DC handgun ban)

It really is that simple and it is clear that the 4th Circuit was correct in invalidating the Maryland assault weapon ban and the ban on large capacity magazines (the topic of this thread).


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Old 02-06-2016, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The person has a "natural/inalienable right of self-defense against acts of aggression" but no person has an inalienable right to possess any specific commodity.

The 2nd Amendment protects the statutory (not inalienable) right to possess "arms" for the purpose of self-defense but the 2nd Amendment doesn't define what types of arms are protected. "Arms" can refer to anything from a stick to a nuclear weapon and Congress is delegated with limited statutory authority to determine what types of "Arms" are protected subject only to the interpretation of the word "Arms" by the US Supreme Court.

What is more important than the 2nd Amendment from a Constitutional perspective is that our government cannot impose ex post facto criminal laws (clause 1 of Article I, Section 10). If a firearm was lawfully purchased then the ownership cannot become a criminal offense in the future. Regulations related to the ownership can be imposed but the ownership of the firearm itself cannot be made a criminal offense. This is why the "pro-gun" arguments that firearms could be confiscated by future laws is a myth because clause 1 of Article I, Section 10 effectively prevents that from ever happening. While the future sales of a specific type of firearm can be prohibited, based upon the definition of "arms" under the 2nd Amendment, the prior lawful ownership can never be revoked.

We see two fundamental problems here. First of all is that some people can't differentiate between what's an inalienable right and a statutory right and the 2nd Amendment addresses a statutory right. Next is that people misread the 2nd Amendment believing that it specifies "firearms" when it doesn't because it actually refers to "arms" that can be many objects used by the person.
I call your post 100% horseshlt. Statutory right, my ass.
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

Has the anti-gun brain-trust here been tied-up, gagged and chained to a radiator in the basement?

I really, really, really wanted to hear how SCOTUS is wrong on its definition of "arms" and how the statement that the right to arms is merely a statutory right was going to be defended.

Come out, come out, wherever you are!
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

With all the pompous self-important rhetoric, and endless infantile criticism, of the debating tactics of others, the truth finally comes out.

When it comes to substantive argument in support of their positions, they got nuttin’.

Last edited by G_Link; 02-10-2016 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The person has a "natural/inalienable right of self-defense against acts of aggression" but no person has an inalienable right to possess any specific commodity.

The 2nd Amendment protects the statutory (not inalienable) right to possess "arms" for the purpose of self-defense but the 2nd Amendment doesn't define what types of arms are protected. "Arms" can refer to anything from a stick to a nuclear weapon and Congress is delegated with limited statutory authority to determine what types of "Arms" are protected subject only to the interpretation of the word "Arms" by the US Supreme Court.

What is more important than the 2nd Amendment from a Constitutional perspective is that our government cannot impose ex post facto criminal laws (clause 1 of Article I, Section 10). If a firearm was lawfully purchased then the ownership cannot become a criminal offense in the future. Regulations related to the ownership can be imposed but the ownership of the firearm itself cannot be made a criminal offense. This is why the "pro-gun" arguments that firearms could be confiscated by future laws is a myth because clause 1 of Article I, Section 10 effectively prevents that from ever happening. While the future sales of a specific type of firearm can be prohibited, based upon the definition of "arms" under the 2nd Amendment, the prior lawful ownership can never be revoked.

We see two fundamental problems here. First of all is that some people can't differentiate between what's an inalienable right and a statutory right and the 2nd Amendment addresses a statutory right. Next is that people misread the 2nd Amendment believing that it specifies "firearms" when it doesn't because it actually refers to "arms" that can be many objects used by the person.
On the contrary, The 2nd does not establish the right to protect oneself, but rather the right to keep and bear the means to do so. What that means is up to each individual.
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: 4th Circuit Strikes down Maryland's Assault Weapon/Magazine Ban

I'm still wondering from what ass hole this "statutory" right plopped out. Unalienable rights do not come from man, the last time I looked.
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